Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[lesofprimus]

Yup...

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by Soren

It is well known that up until the A-6 the Fw-190 had problems with its ailerons, and even the LW mechanics (The only ones who could properly correct this) sometimes found it hard to get right. This problem was solved with the introduction of the A-6 however.

Nope it was still there, just not as bad as before.

Anyone could make the correct adjustments if they had the manual that told them how to do it.


Crumpp:
The FW-190A6 and above mounted the Type III. The aileron types were interchangeable but the standard for the FW-190A6 and above was the Type III.

The hinge geometry and a stiffening of the internal structure.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Nope it was still there, just not as bad as before.

To my knowledge the problem was eliminated with the introduction of the A-6, where have you heard otherwise ?

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Anyone could make the correct adjustments if they had the manual that told them how to do it.

- and the right tools plus experience.

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by Soren

To my knowledge the problem was eliminated with the introduction of the A-6, where have you heard otherwise ?

- and the right tools plus experience.

Then if it was eliminated, why were there Allied pilots saying they saw late model 190As snap/spin? Hardly indicative of the problem being completely solved.

- tools and experience is a given.

Join the White 1 Foundation.

[alejandro_]

There really wasn't a fighter down low the Dora-9 couldn't beat.

The La-7 was quite an opponent at low altitudes.

Regards.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Then if it was eliminated, why were there Allied pilots saying they saw late model 190As snap/spin? Hardly indicative of the problem being completely solved.

Come on ! Is that your proof ?

I guess this is the quote your clinging to:
"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked. Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive. As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control"

Well first off all most late war 190A's were flying with bomber-interceptor setups, heavily armed and loaded(The ones P-51 pilot's were most likely to meet), so for one of those dogfighting with the lighter allied fighters would most likely end in a stall at some point. Secondly even when the ailerons were properly adjusted stall warning was still not very pronounced, so a green pilot could quite easily miss it and pull abit too hard abruptly stalling the aircraft. (Remember the Fw190 had very sensitive controls)

So that Hayes saw several 190's stall doesn't indicate at all that it was because of a problem with the ailerons, infact all it indicates is that the 190's in question were most likely heavily armed carrying one of the many Rüstsätze's available and/or piloted by a green pilot. And that he even saw some crash can be attributed to a long number of other things before the ailerons. (That it was an earlier version Anton amongst other things perhaps )

Also if you look up the post-war allied tests with the Fw-190 Dora you'll notice how gentle its stall was, and that no problem regarding the adjustment of the ailerons is mentioned(Unlike in ealier reports regarding the Anton), again disproving that there should be any problem with the ailerons.

I'm not saying that with the introduction of the A-6 it was now piece of cake adjusting them, not at all, but that the problem with them not being properly adjusted was over.

But to be on the safe side you could perhaps ask this guy "Crumpp" about it ??

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

- tools and experience is a given.

Perhaps, but a technical manual is not, and the only info the Allies had on the Fw190 was pilot testimonies.

[lesofprimus]

There were also MANY engagements where the German pilots, in both the -190 and the -109, would purposely put their planes into stalls and spins to disengage from an overwhelming situation, to great effect I might add....

[KraziKanuK]

first off all most late war 190A's were flying with bomber-interceptor setups, heavily armed and loaded

Where does your info come from that almost all late war 190As were heavily armoured? Proportion wise to the number of 190s produced, the number of FW 190 A-8/R2, FW 190 A-8/R7 and FW 190 A-8/R8 was very small.

The only unit that flew /R8s was IV.(Sturm)/J.G. 3. The FW 190 A-8/R2 had no special armour but had the outboard cannon replaced with MK 108 30 mm cannons. The /R7 got the cockpit fuselage armour.

[Soren]

Krazi, I said "Armed" not "Armoured".

[lesofprimus]

This is true, he did say armed....

[Erich]

I think I need to make some clarification here on the knights of the Sturmgruppe........

first one was the A-6/MK then the A-7MK or R2 that it was known later in I./JG 11.

The A-8/R2 came into play and was the standard SturmFw with all armor and with or without the mg cowling faired over the the mg 131's removed.

There was never an R7 varinat on operations.

The R8 variant was just like the R2 except in November 44 end it was to replace the R2 which it never did, and the R8 hads the mg 131 fairings as standard.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 kept the canopy Scheuklappen or blinkers as we call them, but II.Sturm/JG 4 removed them after their second air battle in September 44 due to sever icing and II.Sturm/JG 300 removed them from the start for better visibility. All 3 Sturmgruppen had the R2 and later the R8's in their line-ups.

E ~ remember the R2 had ALL the armor in place just like the R8. Early shots of JG 3 Sturms show four 2cm weapons and no canopy armor in June of 44 due to jabo missions in Normandie, when withdrawn from those and into the Reich they immediately were outfitted with all the heavy steel plating. JG 300 Sturms did not get this till July 44's end. Some pilots at their wishes still preferred the outboard 2cm weapons to be left in place........

[KraziKanuK]

Oops Soren, that is what happens before one has that 1st cup of morning coffee.

[Soren]

Hey, no worries.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Sometimes when you think about it the FW the allies faced the most was the FW190-A version. It's top speed was below 400 mph. That means the P-51 had a large advantage in speed. That's the FW the P-51 pilots had to worry about most, and thats why the P-51 can have the reputation of being faster and better at high altitudes than the FW in records and logs of American pilots of WWII. If the FW-D faced them in the same numbers in 1942, 43' 44' with a top speed equal to the P-51 Mustang, they might have had a rougher time. The FW-D didn't start doing much until the air war for Germany was half lost in late 1944.

Sure it's just running over the mill again, but I still hold that the P-51D was superior to FW-A. It outperformed it in many ways. And thats what counted since the Bombers were attacked mainly by the FW 190A and the
p-51D was the one that had to do it.


But lets not forget the good old P-47 in 1943. They also did great agains't the FW 190A.

Frankly, if WWII had dragged on, and the Germans had managed to keep their Luftwaffe intact, and had bought in the Ta-154, and the P-51H was having a tough time, the US Air Force could have just bought a couple of Bearcats from the Navy. The Bearcat was equal to the German Ta, and had a faster speed. Thanks to our pirating of the FW design, the Bearcat wouldn't have been inferior to the Ta. Logically though, everyone would have switched to fighter jets by 1946. And there the germans had an advantage in jet aircraft.

[lesofprimus]

The Bearcat wouldnt have had the legs for escort missions...