Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Soren]

no the Dora was flown at mid altitudes to low altitude many times by JG 51 and IV./JG 3 pilots as described in their flugbuchs and in the Geschwader log-buchs. As well as II./JG 301 Doras while in the last battles for Berlin.

Erich I never claimed they didn't, so what is your point ?

Soren do you see my point, you can explain away all the stas you want for both Luftw and US machines and it will do no good, the Dora was slaughtered in the skies over the Reich in all the units that it was destined for. it never gave the Mustang a hard time in the sky.

Erich the Dora-9's were mainly flown by inexperienced pilots with very few flight hours, against P-51's with properly trained pilots which outnumbered them 10 to 1. Thats why they got slaughtered Erich. Had the P-51 been in the same situation, it would've done even worse.

True some of the noted aces in the 109/Fw 190A flew the Dora in JG 26 but racked up few kills in late 44-45 to even reflect that their bird coudl take out the Mustang at will.

"Take out the Mustang at will" ? what do you mean Erich ?
You don't just take out another aircraft at will, it takes skill to do such a thing, nomatter how superior your aircraft is.

You could be flying the best aircraft of the war, and still get your ass kicked by a vastly inferior aircraft flown by a better pilot.

the big deal was it never conclusively replaced the existing Luftw arsenal, if it had in late 44 then a better and overall tribute could be made on it's performance against all Allied "western' fighters.

It probably would've if the Germans have had the resources, but they didnt.

[Erich]

soren you are off mark. my first comment you quoted was not directed at you but the poster before you concerning the Ost front.

the second point is that you are not quite correct the Dora was flown by many experienced pilots.

as to the comment take out at will maybe that was a bit sloppy but look at my earlier postings it is alle xplained and you have just repeated my comments for good measure, it is all explained in this thread and the past ones archived over the last 2 years on the A-8 Sturms, me 262 and the Dora about the overwhelming power of the Us might and even the RAF as Jg 26 experienced.

I really feel you guys are making the Dora out to be a super a/c against the P-51. Reality here it wasn't. I have said it so many times it will have to be repeated again, the Dora was not to replace the front line units the TA and the Me 262 had the war continued. I posted the stats twice in older threads about what unit was going to be replaced by what in June/July of 45 with the inkiling of newer equipment such as jets taking complete control.

The Lufw in 45 had literally too many experimental a/c in service with trained/untrained pilots eager to take them up against Allied escorts and Heavies. there was plenty of craft and boys to fly, BUT no fuel. that was proven even in the Nachtjagd. Had fuel reserves been available then we would of seen an RAF horro like in march of 44 when over 100 RAF heavies bit the dust

just a side note the Dora 9 was even considered to be used as a night fighter

[KraziKanuK]

Erich not to send the thread OT but do you have stats for German fuel availability for 1945? For each command district would be a bonus.

[Erich]

that would be nice if anyone had that..........so much materials were lost in Berlin in late 44 till wars end when the Soviets destroyed the city.

as we have all chatted in the past of something we thought was quite easy : confirmed kills or even claims by the Luftwaffe for fall of 44 till wars end and the command did not process them anymore so what is available to us is what is in logbooks from the pilots/crews and the wing histories. this is obvious why we just do not see much written about the nachtjagd or some of the day fighter units, the information is lost forever.

__________________________________________________ ___________

getting back to the Dora 9, Jerry Crandalls new work on the a/c and some of the pilots might be worth a check this summer; and then this thread can go further as needed info will be available. I have some info unpublished on my cousins outfit in II./JG 301 but I have no intention of releasing it in the near future except for a dribble or two.

I did release friend and ace Oskar Romm's acct of his kills and flying the Dora 9 on the Ost front earlier I thought..... ?

[Soren]

soren you are off mark. my first comment you quoted was not directed at you but the poster before you concerning the Ost front.

Sorry, I did not realise that.

the second point is that you are not quite correct the Dora was flown by many experienced pilots.

How do you define "many" Erich ? Cause the vast majority of Dora-9's were flown by VERY green pilots, pilots who in no way were prepared to engage the swarms of allied fighters which opposed them.

Experienced pilots managed to to make a good number of Allied fighter pilots piss their pans out of sheer terror, as they demonstrated the real potential of the Dora-9.

The fact that Fw-190's were slaughtered in late 44-45, is entirely due to the shortages of properly trained pilots and fuel, the fighter itself simply cannot be blamed.

I really feel you guys are making the Dora out to be a super a/c against the P-51. Reality here it wasn't.

Again you make the mistake of blaming the aircraft itself, something you simply cannot do Erich. As I said ealier, the P-51 would've done an even worse job had it been in the same situation.

The Fw-190D-9 was a superior fighter to most Allied fighters, except for the Spitfire XIV which would be a real handful for the Dora-9, but it goes both ways.

I have said it so many times it will have to be repeated again, the Dora was not to replace the front line units the TA and the Me 262 had the war continued. I posted the stats twice in older threads about what unit was going to be replaced by what in June/July of 45 with the inkiling of newer equipment such as jets taking complete control.

I agree, the Ta-152 and me262 was the way to go for Germany, as these two aircraft would've totally dominated the skies over europe had they been produced ealier and in larger numbers, with adequate amounts of properly trained pilots available for them.

The Lufw in 45 had literally too many experimental a/c in service with trained/untrained pilots eager to take them up against Allied escorts and Heavies. there was plenty of craft and boys to fly, BUT no fuel.

Properly trained pilots were few and far between in 45, and the fact that Germany was experimenting with so many aircraft designs didnt make the situation any better.

that was proven even in the Nachtjagd. Had fuel reserves been available then we would of seen an RAF horro like in march of 44 when over 100 RAF heavies bit the dust

Fuel shortages were certainly hugely to blame for the LW's defeat, but lack of properly trained pilots was certainly also a factor.

[Erich]

Soren look at III./JG 54 for starts and then the cadre formed Iv./JG 26, the JG 26 geschwader was the leading Dora unit very experineced , read some details from the many books covering the unit. Iv./Jg 3 pilots from FW 190A-8/A-9's took on the Soviet a/c and slaughtered them in the Doras they finally go something more powerful in the way of speed and turn.

what do you mean blame the a/c ?

you have proof of course of the individual "experienced" or non experienced Luftw pilots that made the Allied pilots piss in their pants correct ?

the slaughter had nothing to do with a/c or poorly trained pilots. think radar detection in late 44 -45. there was none, the Us P-51's in 9 out of 10 cases were alwasy flying higger than ALL German prop driven a/c coming to mee them or the bombers. the log books state this over and over, second volume JG 300 shows it clearly, the Fw 190 and 109 pilots never had a chance and it did not matter what type of expereince you had.

and finally you are just repeating my statements to prove what type of point if you have any and you don't.........so quit it now please.

the Dora was not superior to the P-51 D or K period.

The RAF for one allowed a JG 51 ace to fly his Dora in combat in mock combat after war with an RAF fighter, the RAF was not impressed.

On another note I feel the Dora was substantially better looking tha ll the Luftw fighters seeing service except it's cousin the Ta 152H but that is a motto matter

artist Claes Sundin's example of a 7./JG 301 Dora 9 1945

[syscom3]

I thought the lack of experienced pilots was more due to a lack of fuel to train them.

[Erich]

a but fuel depending just where was available to some extent. Ill trained pilots was due to shortness of daylight hours; due to the time in the Schulen, the reason they postponed their flights for late afternoon when Allied fighters had already made the turn for home. Also le's realize the US had ill trained pilots up and going over the Reich, just as scared as the German boyz.

gents check this book out through friend Peter Kassak via Mushroom publications.

the March 2, 1945 massacre which I have much detail on. Read about the Dora 9's taking on P-51's in this small book. you can enver have too few a book I feel. In fact I need to nab a copy of this for my files.....

http://mmpbooks.biz/books/normal_covers/8389450224.jpg

[KraziKanuK]

Lange flew a Dora, some say a 9 and others say it was a 13, against a Tempest and beat the Tempest in a low level (under 3000m) dogfight.

ref. Hermann's Dora book

[Soren]

Fine Erich, what exactly made the Dora-9 such a lousy fighter, a fighter which stood no chance on a individual basis against the P-51 according to you ?

I suppose Chuck Yeager and Eric Brown, as-well as countless others, were all wrong when they called the Dora-9 "One the best fighters of WW2" ?

[paul.kachurak]

I made the speed and climb charts based on real data




The turn stuff are my calculations based on drag, power, etc. data



IMO below about 7000m the P-51D and Fw190D-9 are fairly evenly matched with initial combat conditions and pilot skill being the primary deciding factors.

[FLYBOYJ]

Very Cool!

[Gnomey]

Good stuff Paul, welcome to the forum.

[Erich]

my gosh Soren you're such a *****

if I were to say the Dora 9 was such a lousy fighter then I would say so. you read my comments on the useage in a brilliant pattern in brief detail in the past and recently on the thread we are debating. maybe you did not It was not superior to the Mustang and I don't care what type of graphs anyone puts up over the upteen years the net has been in service. Geezo guys why does this aways happen ? I've seen these graphs on every serious WW 2 Luftw site

Chuck is full of himself I doubt 1/2 the stuff he says, the master bullshitter as a good research friend has called him and chuckie knows it quite well and Eric Brown I actually know and the guy was not a combat pilot in WW 2. anymore you want to add guys ....... ? I still wait Soren your findings of RAf and US fg pilots pissing in their pants. Sadly you won't find any.

ok lets now change gears and put up some action reports because this IS simply genltmen what everyone should be posting, first person accounts not just guess work and what ifs which seem to carry here for nearly 1/3 of the existing threads. How about some intelligent questions asked and lets work together to find the answers instead of pointless debate which gets us nowhere. some of you guys love the Dora series and some the Mustang series of craft. Any concellation to all of you and it probably isn;t but I really don't care for either of them, so I am remaining forever truthful, not taking a side for either. presenting existing facts given to me through research an first hand experience ~ accts of pilots since 1968

[Lunatic]

Soren,

Under the P-51 you left out:

1) Much superior range and endurance.

2) Berger G-Suit for much superior G-tolerance while maintaining an optimal combat seating position (leaning back makes fighting harder).

3) 395 mph + sustainable cruising speed.

4) Much easier to mass produce.

And the Kommandogerat was an advange... right up to the point it got the divide by zero error and stopped working.

And the weight figures are based upon full fuel, where in actual combat the P-51 would have a lower proportion of its full fuel load than the D9.

Vision from the D9 was good (compared to many other WWII fighters), but it was not nearly as good as that from the P-51 both because of the canopy design and the pilot position (try reclining and then looking back over your shoulder while strapped in).

Also, actual top speed of the P-51D was 448 mph. For the P-51B it was 451 mph. 437 mph is under Military Power, not Combat Power (WEP). (Source - Kit Carson amoung others)

=S=

Lunatic