Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Erich]

in additon to what Lunatic informed us.........get the book on March 2, 1945 with the 352nd fg taking it to II./JG 300 especially.

Mustang had better gunsight optics, although quite a unique sight was being tested with Fw gruppe II.Sturm/JG 300.

largest factor and maybe the prime one of importantce is the Mustang had the better altitude ceiling. As I have said countless times, the US pilots could say with ease.........come on up, whether Dora 9's or Bf 109G-10's

[Soren]

Oh dear

my gosh Soren you're such a *****

Go ahead Erich, resort to insults if that helps you.

if I were to say the Dora 9 was such a lousy fighter then I would say so. you read my comments on the useage in a brilliant pattern in brief detail in the past and recently on the thread we are debating.

Huh ? Where, what, when ?????!!!

Whats with the sudden outbreak Erich ?

I still wait Soren your findings of RAf and US fg pilots pissing in their pants.

You certainly take things litterally Erich!

But ok, I'll dig out some comments from P-51 vets.

Soren,

Under the P-51 you left out:

1) Much superior range and endurance.

2) Berger G-Suit for much superior G-tolerance while maintaining an optimal combat seating position (leaning back makes fighting harder).

3) 395 mph + sustainable cruising speed.

4) Much easier to mass produce.

Im sure I left out alot of things about the Dora-9 as-well. How about up to 10min of boost ?

And about #3, no the cruising speed for P-51D was much lower at 275mph, and that is also what vets say it did.

And the Kommandogerat was an advange... right up to the point it got the divide by zero error and stopped working.

Example perhaps ?

And the weight figures are based upon full fuel, where in actual combat the P-51 would have a lower proportion of its full fuel load than the D9.

Would it really ? I think not, as the P-51D first dropped its main source of fuel, its drop tanks, when engaged by enemy fighters, having to fight with full internal fuel load. On the other hand many 190's and 109's flew on low fuel, partly because of the trip to engage their target and because of fuel shortages.

Vision from the D9 was good (compared to many other WWII fighters), but it was not nearly as good as that from the P-51 both because of the canopy design and the pilot position (try reclining and then looking back over your shoulder while strapped in).

Agreed, however forward vision was better in the Fw-190.

Also, actual top speed of the P-51D was 448 mph. For the P-51B it was 451 mph. 437 mph is under Military Power, not Combat Power (WEP). (Source - Kit Carson amoung others)

Kit Carson ?! Now THAT's a guy which is full of it, and I think most people will agree with that ! I personally believe nothing he says, what so ever, and Im surprised if anyone does.

[Soren]

Paul, nice charts but the CL-max figures are too high, especially for the P-51 which according to NACA themselves peaked at 1.28. You can read it yourself in Naca Report 829, Page 26 in the PDF of the Naca Report server.

[Erich]

Soren lets bury this crap between us right now ..............

I am though curious if you have other US vets that feel the Dora was a hot ticket.

I ask this because as a US 352nd fg member I have interviewed many of that group, some of them on the 2 march 45 mission that I have mentioned above. None of them were impressed except to say that is one of those new long nose/long tailed Fw's. Because of this possible excitement many were looking for Doras to pop.

You guys have read about Herr Pierre's acct of his wingman shot down and his holyier than though Tempest Le Grande Charles or something another holed so bad he almost went down with his craft. Rudi Wurff of 6./JG 301 Dora 9 PC's shot his companion down and almost P. C. in process with a fine jump out of the clouds on a perfect bounce. In Pc's book he claims that Rudi had over 7 kills, he really had only 3. He is pictured with his Dora in W. Resckes book JG 301/302

get this book as well, I know Les has the English version

[KraziKanuK]

Soren, the sop for the Mustang was to burn off at least 1/2 of the fuselage tank before switching to the dts.

As for fuel in the LW fighters, the typical combat radius of the the 190A and 109 was 130-150mi. with internal fuel. Cripes, even during Bodenplatte many ran out of fuel dispite carrying dts.


Erich, the Yeager comment was tongue in cheek.

[Erich]

KK I know that but I have first hand experience from this twit. Excellent pilot he was he makes no bones about being the best rough tough sob in the air over the Reich in his mind.

the man is offensively brutal even today when he appears

[KraziKanuK]

yes I have heard he is an obnoxious sob.

[Soren]

Soren lets bury this crap between us right now ..............

Im glad you said that, cause I really don't understand what all the fuzz was about.

I am though curious if you have other US vets that feel the Dora was a hot ticket.

I'll dig out some comments for you.

I ask this because as a US 352nd fg member I have interviewed many of that group, some of them on the 2 march 45 mission that I have mentioned above. None of them were impressed except to say that is one of those new long nose/long tailed Fw's. Because of this possible excitement many were looking for Doras to pop.

My experience is often the same, however since the LW pilots were facing the odds they were, it is understandable that many US fighter pilots found them to be easy prey. According to many US vets, 109G-k or 190A-D, it made no difference, they were all equally easy to shoot down, and the reason is simple, as it doesn't take long for 2-3 a/c together to bring down 1 enemy a/c. The odds were simply too great for the LW pilots, and it made no difference if they were flying 109's or 190's cause they were simply too few.

[Hunter368]

Just to add, I have read where many LW aces (top aces) were very scared to engage the bomber flights and their escorts b/c they knew the odds were so bad that not even a great pilot can take on 5 or 10 planes and win, maybe once or twice but that sort of odds is going to catch up to you sooner or later. LW pilots knew the war was over which did not help their motivation any to engage such huge odds on a daily basis. All I am saying that can you imagine how the green pilots felt when they saw those huge odds if even the "old hands" were scared.

[Erich]

Alt Hasen were really not so much afraid, as why bother the war is lost. The kids they knew were going to get plastered like my young cousin on his second mission trying to defend his Staffelkäpitan on 26 Nov. 44. My cousin must have proven himself adequately on 21 Nov 44 mission agasint B-17's and Mustangs evidently to be chosen to be the 5th staffel Stkpt. wingman, but to no use both he and his Kapitän were shot down by Mustangs and KIA.

sadly the Luftw. radar and intercept systems knew in approx. how many US bombers and fighters were taking off from England and enroute before they reached the shores of the Reich

my cousin now lies peacefully one of the many vanquished pilots

[Hunter368]

Sorry to hear that about your cousin. I am sure he fought for his country and his people and did them proud.

[Erich]

slightly OT ........... thanks Hunter,

and yes another cousin and ace Hans Baer flying in II./NJG 5 he went down with his Bf 110G-4 with one engine seizing and the a/c dropped according to eye-wintesses like a stone. Buried at the Speyer Friedhof. lost another 3 cousins on my mothers side all in the Heer and on the Ost front, one coming back to Germany after surviving the gulags, he died enroute home.

geez do you think I have a little bitterness

[lesofprimus]

My Grandfather thought that the Dora was the second best prop job the Germans produced, behind the -152H, and I still agree with him... I also feel that the Dora was a better combat aircraft than the Mustang below 30,000 feet...

But I will say this, not many of the American fighter jocks were scared of anything the Germans put up in the air to intercept them...

[Erich]

I've had a laugh about this for years ...........

II./JG 301's Dora 9's on bombing missions over the Ost front protected by Ta 152's of III./JG 301 and later the Stab./JG 301.

why do I get a chuckle you ask ?

think about the waste of a good high alt. job carrying bombs on ground attack and then high alitidue Tanks brought down to low level to ward off Soviet Migs and Jaks.

Frickin idiotic but that is the way it was in 1945. One of the many unknowns on the Ost front the closing months of the war

[Erich]

Scale Aviation Modelling produced in the UK has Neil's article on the Dora, pick it up NOW ! some great materials and rare pics of the bird