Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Soren]

Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang


Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & "Kommandogerat".


P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing & Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

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Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
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It is easy to understand why the Fw-190D-9 was considered a nasty handful for the P-51D !

[FLYBOYJ]

Great post Soren - I'm going to "borrow" it for another post...

[Soren]

Be my guest FLYBOYJ

[KraziKanuK]

Soren nice but the Dora did not have Flettner tabs.

-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs.

If you want to see Flettner tabs look at the rudder of late model Me109s.

[Erich]

maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Erich

maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

But was it becuase it was outnumbered, tactics or pilot skill? Or all the above?

[Erich]

all three above it was- the Dora not up to par at high altitudes with the P-51. It was a superior at mid range with all Soviet fighter types.

I know the stats and that's all they are will say otherwise and the Dora was much better suited in fighter vs fighter with US craft than any of the Anton variants but still was not ultimately suited for "coming on up" to higher flying P-51's

overpowered by the odds, too few good pilots, underfuled, never quite having the upper hand in combat except on very few times

[syscom3]

Great Post.

Do you have any acceleration data for them both?

[Gnomey]

Good post Soren, great info and Erich for the extra info, good stuff.

[evangilder]

Interesting stuff, Erich. Thanks for the clarification!

[FLYBOYJ]

Great stuff Erich, thanks!

[alejandro_]

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

IIRC it was deployed in greater quantities in the Western front. In the eastern front the fights took place at low altitudes where the A versions were ok. The main reason for the D9 was to get a good performance at high altitudes, which the Fw-190A lacked.

http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.p...40&page=fw190d

In that link you can read an assesment by the Soviet AF Scientific Research Institute. Note that it's very likely that the MW-50 kit was not used.

Regards.

[Soren]

You are quite right Krazi, it was a mistake I wrote that, the Dora used a fixed tab. My mistake.

maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

However that doesn't really reflect the performance of the aircraft itself. In the hands of a good pilot the Fw-190D-9 was a nightmare for any P-51 pilot.

Also the Dora-9 was infact designed to have better performance at high alt than its predecessor, however the cabin design wasn't able to provide adequate pressurization.

The fact that the Fw-190's suffered high losses was entirely due to the fact that their pilots were ill trained and that they were outnumbered approx. 10 to 1, it cannot be blamed on the aircraft itself, it was a marvel of a machine.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

Absolutely.

[Erich]

no the Dora was flown at mid altitudes to low altitude many times by JG 51 and IV./JG 3 pilots as described in their flugbuchs and in the Geschwader log-buchs. As well as II./JG 301 Doras while in the last battles for Berlin.

Soren do you see my point, you can explain away all the stas you want for both Luftw and US machines and it will do no good, the Dora was slaughtered in the skies over the Reich in all the units that it was destined for. it never gave the Mustang a hard time in the sky. True some of the noted aces in the 109/Fw 190A flew the Dora in JG 26 but racked up few kills in late 44-45 to even reflect that their bird coudl take out the Mustang at will.

the big deal was it never conclusively replaced the existing Luftw arsenal, if it had in late 44 then a better and overall tribute could be made on it's performance against all Allied "western' fighters.

in spring of 45: Doras in

JG 2 equipped
part of the ex-sturm IV./JG 3
stab in JG 4
part of II./JG 6
JG 26 equipped
several units in II./JG 300 more like about 8 a/c
II./JG 301 the 5-7th staffels, the 8th had A-9's

v/r Alt ♫

[KraziKanuK]

Didn't Yeager say the only LW fighter that gave him fits was the Dora?

A little trivia. Slightly more Doras were produced than Kurfurst 109s.