Fw better then Me-262?

[Wespe]

Hi Gnomey

I am not making an (ueber-plane) out of the Me-262. I am simply stating that the 262 was the better plane.

If you do not give a priority towards speed, you are right in a way to point out that speed isn't everything, but you seem to ignore that due to the overwhelming odds, it was the only thing that could give a Luftwaffe pilot a chance to survive, before and after maybe shooting down a bomber or fighter. I never said that a 262 is invincible. I can understand that from American or allied point of view, this all doesn't matter - free for the motto: who cares how fast they are we won the war anyway, or in 1944 - we will win anyway no matter how fast they are. So speed isnt everything from the allied point of view, but this does not apply to the Luftwaffe point of view. And if Galland would not have pushed this topic, the 262 would have been some funny sideshow flying meaningless ground attack sorties.

Torpedo and Mistel capabillities can be forwarded but to my believe are totally irrellevant.

Range,okay yes, but who needed a range in 44 or 45 that could not be provided by the 262, 1000km range.

Also to point out constantly, that the 262 was not in availability such as the Fw doesnt have any indication on a competition of a plane. When the RLM had its competitions or evaluations it was e.g. one Bf against one Fw and not the existing 2000? Bf in 1941 against the one Fw prototyp.

The only thing a Fw could do better, and I never dissagread was the ground attack role.
Anything else a 262 could do just as well but with one major advantage "speed". That the plane was in its early stages is known, and I would not use that in order to explain failures but also not to indicate that a modell that derived from 40/42 was better due to its development time.

And a F-86 was definatly not worse then a P-51 just because it could be shoot down by a prop or had engine problems in its early days.
The F-86 could just as well perform as a P-51 but "faster" and therefore bring the factor of "survival" to the US and UN pilots making it the better plane, no matter how many roles the P-51 could do and the Sabre could not.

Wespe

[Gnomey]

Even with the speed a lot of Me-262's got shot down. Yes at top speed it was faster but it could be caught by an Allied plane in a dive and then shot down. Without the advantage of altitude the speed of the Me-262 was rather wasted as the Allied prop planes could dive to catch up with it.

[Erich]

well I have to put my puny white butt in here..........

will not say much yet as I am in the middle of a couple big jobs in the snow , but be prepared Wespe (in fact go by you're real name please if you want a real answer) to get your fantaises smeared all over the skies.

what was the Me 262 A created for ? by answering this correctly you will gain a head full of knowledge which will help you realize where the Me 262 should be placed with the ranks of the Fw multi-variants.

It's simple the Fw 190 outperformed the 262 in everything but flat-out speed. Had the Me 262B-2a been available then it would of been the ultimate German night fighter but it did not ........ there is more .........

well I will tantalize your brain matter later tonight

bis bald E ♫

[Wespe]

And a Fw going in for the landing or a dive could be wasted just as well by an allied plane. Come on this doesn't proof anything.

However the Luftwaffe claimes for the 262 a total kill of about 700 planes.

That would be a kill ratio of 2 or 3:1 for the 262. No 109 or Fw can claim that kill ratio, or did the Luftwaffe shoot down 100,000 allied planes? .

So this figure already proofs significantly more or less everything about the capabilities of a 262 compared to a Fw or Bf or what ever axis or allied a/c.

Wespe

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Wespe

Hi Gnomey


And a F-86 was definatly not worse then a P-51 just because it could be shoot down by a prop or had engine problems in its early days.
The F-86 could just as well perform as a P-51 but "faster" and therefore bring the factor of "survival" to the US and UN pilots making it the better plane, no matter how many roles the P-51 could do and the Sabre could not.

Wespe

You're comparing a 2nd generation jet fighter aircraft to a ww2 aircraft - apples to oranges. Look that the thrust, power to weight ratio and internal systems of the F-86 and they are light years a head of the P-51.

But going back to the -262, First generation jet with barely 1500 pounds of thrust per engine that will last 10 - 20 hours if you're lucky (BTW to enlighten you about jet engine operation, you can't fly 100% continually). I suggest you look into how long the -262 could sustain its top speed due to normal operating limitation, you'll be very surprised.

[lesofprimus]

This is retarded... We're all sitting here trying to convice some noob that he's wrong, and we've done this debate a couple times here already... What a waste of time...

Kid, the 262 was not a better all around fighter aircraft than the many derivatives of the Fw190......

Period...

All this back and forth sh!t is useless... U have not the slightest idea what u are talking about, and are trying to argue facts against people who KNOW with ur twisted view of reality...

Go read some old posts and threads concerning the arguments and info as to best fighter/bomber killer... Educate urself, cause u need to, and the facts are all hidden inside this little realm known as ww2aircraft.net...

[delcyros]

The 700 -262 "kills" actually are claims and not kills.
I am not sure how many kills can be credited with the Me-262 but it is agruably more than 361 and certainly less than 500...

[Civettone]

I don't know if you call him a kid. If he has studied the matter for 35 years ...
Although I have to say, when Wespe joined, I thought he was 25 or so... Did you guys have the same impression??

I suppose 99% of discussions have been had before. In that case we can just pack it up, and post shortcuts to previous posts.
For what it's worth, I think the Me 262 was the best fighter when the engines held. Speed is the most important flight characteristic in air combat. The Bf 109 usually faced more manoeuvrable fighters while it conquered the skies of the entire European continent, yet its speed allowed it to have the initiative, chosing when to engage and when to disengage, and advantage which cannot be overemphasised. I'm sure the Japanese also came to the same conclusion when hundreds of their best pilots got killed by fighter aircraft which boomed and zoomed at will.

But the most versatile fighter the Schwalbe definitely isn't.

Kris

[lesofprimus]

If he studied anything for 35 years my dog has wings and whistles Battle Hymn of The Republic...

[Wespe]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

This is retarded... We're all sitting here trying to convice some noob that he's wrong, and we've done this debate a couple times here already... What a waste of time...

Kid, the 262 was not a better all around fighter aircraft than the many derivatives of the Fw190......

Period...

All this back and forth sh!t is useless... U have not the slightest idea what u are talking about, and are trying to argue facts against people who KNOW with ur twisted view of reality...

Go read some old posts and threads concerning the arguments and info as to best fighter/bomber killer... Educate urself, cause u need to, and the facts are all hidden inside this little realm known as ww2aircraft.net...

I prefer not to comment this, but I know what to do
Wespe

[lesofprimus]

Then please do it...

[Gnomey]

Yeah. You may have studied for almost twice as long as I have been alive but even I can tell you that your ideas are wrong. There is something wrong there (or maybe I am just intelligent)...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I suggest you look into how long the -262 could sustain its top speed due to normal operating limitation, you'll be very surprised.

I agree. If he thinks the the Me-262 could fly at its max speed for the whole duration of its flight he is completely clueless. Every Aircraft has its operting limitiation. On the Blackhawk we could not fly for more than 30 mintues at 100 percent power. We did not have to land after that 30 mintues but we had to drop back into the "Green" for a while.

That is the same for any aircraft including the Me-262.

The more and more I read what he has to say I think he is clueless. Either that or living in such a dream...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Civettone

I don't know if you call him a kid. If he has studied the matter for 35 years ...
Although I have to say, when Wespe joined, I thought he was 25 or so... Did you guys have the same impression??

What are you talking about? I still have that impression.

[lesofprimus]

He even went so far as to create another member name and, get this, he wanted to argue with himself Axis vs Allies...