Fw better then Me-262?

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

He even went so far as to create another member name and, get this, he wanted to argue with himself Axis vs Allies...

I know that was funny as hell........and lame.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

What are you talking about? I still have that impression.

Dan called him a kid couple posts ago.

Wespe "claims" to have studied the 262 for 35 years......OK.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I know I read it...

[Erich]

if you have studied the 262 for 35 years which is doubtful then you are as old or older than my 53 years.

The 262 was not superior to anything actually. Wespe you still not answer my question of what was the 262 designed for ? .......... do you know ?

The speed initiative over any Allied fighter was enormous on the flat out straight with a slight upward vent or down climb, nothing steep up or down, the turning radius of the jet due to the speed was terrible and this is the case when meeting the 262 in aerial combat the P-51 pilots tried to take advantage of and usually came out on top. Read the piston engine kills thread of which several have added their thoughts. Wespe I hae a truckload of info on the 262 pilots themselves besides the US fighter jocks I have interviewed that engaged the 262, but that is another story.
The 262 could not linger and did not even have a maximum flight time due to small fuel cells/limited range to engage heavy bombers for any length of time and many JG 7 pilots complained of the closing ratios and overshooting of the bombers on a daily basis of engagements in 1945. As to the 700 claims by 262 units you can discount nearly 350 of these. JG 7's alone of over 400 cannot be all verified.
As a bomber it was terrible, as a ground attack unit it was used by JG 7 against Soviet ground targets with some success but again with limited arms cargo and fuel reserves it could not due too much except attack and fly back to base. As a day fighter it was already proved that the 262 was not a dog-fighter and avoiding the P-51 was the base plan for most action unless the P-51's could be taken by a superior altitude and dove upon with complete surprise. As a bomber killer it was supreme with the 3cm and R4M's from 18 march till wars end, but this is too little too late and again with the obnoxious useage of fuels down to nothing the 262 was good for one sweep through attack and then fly balls out back to base if they could make it. Fw 190A's could go through a formation several times if not already pounced upon by Allied escorts. As a recon unit give the place to the Ar 234. As a night fighter the single seater was too limited again in scope, it could not be fitted with radar and all it could do was fly Helle Nacht missions and chase Mossies of the LSNF. Gain due to fuel it could not sit within an RAF bomber stream and take on Lancs/Halis. Had the B-1a been able to be in some numbers then yes even with the added weight of two external fuel tanks and a second crewman/radar operator and of course radar electronics. The Fw 190A-5 and 6, 7 and 8 already proved themselves in Wilde Sau and Tame Sau missions with radar but flying the a/c and operating a radar scope was not a good way to engage a 4 engine heavy and several accidental rammings took place, clearly they were removed from night ops and used for daylight defense against US heavy bombers where the Fw 190A proved itself over and over again........... ok that was enough of the ramble for now.

[lesofprimus]

Not a ramble erich... Ur just going over facts which we are already privvy to... Maybe Wespe will listen....

Probably not as we all have seen his type before...

[Civettone]

I think Erich made some excellent claims as to why the Me 262 was not that great in some of the roles it was pushed into.
Reminds me a bit of what my avatar guy, Milch, said to Hitler when he wanted the Me 262 as a Blitzbomber "But even a small child can see that this is not a bomber but a fighter!!" Exit Milch...

The criticism on the Me 262 as a day fighter is exaggerated though in respect that it applies to all early jet fighters. Because of their speed they were not that manoeuvrable, yet every air force exchanged their piston engined fighters for jets as soon as they got their hands on them.
The lack of fuel cannot be used to criticize the Me 262. On the contrary, the fact that these turbojet engines used diesel oil (or J2) is an advantage as it could be produced more easily than B4 and C3.

Kris

[Njaco]

Wanted to put my two cents worth in. Everything that the posts had stated would be correct but my vote for the Me 262 would be based upon the major (as I see) difference between the two fighters. By the time the Me 262 was operational -key word- the FW had already gone through changes and had evolved into the Dora and Ta with experience with the many roles assigned to it.

I think that if the Me -262 had the length of service as the Fw then it too would have been adapted to those other roles and excelled as the the Fw did.

I'll go back to my doghouse now.

[Erich]

why ?

no the me 262 would have evolved into something much more streamlined over the course of the war had it had an earlier intro. closed within fuel cells, none of the limited reality the craft had. Engines would of been much more protected and more reliable. Just imagine if you will an almost knife-blade in appearance swooshing through the rear of the bomber formations clocking in at over 650mph. not sure what it would of been armed with but the test variants had four 20mms and not the slow firing limited range 30mm's

ah but this is what-if.

Kurt Welter in interviews wanted the Me 262A-1a to go through a fuselage/canopy change with more streamlineability though he knew full well that the RAF 4 engine bombers had to be stopped and that a redo of the two seater needed to be done with enclosed fuel tanks for the long range. also he commented that engine life was not good and that external engines could not take even a half dozen hits by .30's. this will be included in our future work ..... ~

[Civettone]

Erich, can you elaborate on those "closed fuel cells"? Are you saying that the Me 262 didn't have self-sealing tanks or are you talking about something else?

On the Jumo 004, it was unreliable but let's not make it into a joke. When handled properly it was expected to serve 10 hours before a revision was needed (mainly replacing of the worn out turbine blades - a problem which the BMW 003 had much less) and then they could get another 10 hours out of it. I've also read 25 hours, but that would have been the maximum. But if the pilot knew how to handle the Jumo 004, something every pilot should know - then he wouldn't have had many problems with it.

The well known 'flooding & flaming' of the engine was pretty much resolved with the new Jumo 004D with regulator for throttle movement and two stage fuel injection. Prototypes were built and tested, serial production began shortly before end of WWII. The Jumo 004 was flight tested for an endurance of 150 hours, and as a stationary testbed was run for 600 hours.
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/...2_Engine_2.pdf
The Me 262 simply ran out of time...

I am reluctant to answer the question as to which was best because it's really difficult to compare. Especially because the 190 was already 3 years around when the Me 262 entered service. I would conclude that the Fw 190 was the most succesful aircraft while the Me 262 was the best though not succesful fighter. But what should be clear to everyone is that the Fw 190 or any other piston engined fighter was a dead end. And if Germany still had any hopes it needed an aircraft which was both easy to produce as well as markebly better than those of the enemy. As such, the jet aircraft was its only option, even if it was a dangerous path.

Kris

[Erich]

yes the 262 was not the end all for the Luftwaffe and yes the time ran out.

No the fuel cells which I am talking about was the deletion of the external fuel tanks needed in 45 to give longer range for the night fighter variant. What was purposed was a aerodynamic internal fitting on each side of the lower fuselage housing a tank on either side and also slightly armor protected, as well as negating the jet engines from the external to the internal within the wing structure. Flame outs continued to hamper the Kommando Welter through April of 45, in one case by a two seater version with the Kommando on a Mossie hunt, the pilot was able to bail out the radar op was trapped and went down with the jet.

E ~

[Soren]

The Me-262 actually turned and maneuvered extremely well at high speeds, however at low speeds it was a sitting duck for the prop fighters.

Like Hans Werner Lerche put it, the biggest mistake made by many Me-262 pilots was to try and dogfight the Allied fighters at slow speed.

At high speeds the Me-262 could comfortably engage in a turn fight, firstly as the reduction of speed in a turn was much lower than for a prop fighter and secondly because the engines produce much more thrust at higher speeds than a propeller, and finally because the airframe was much stronger. However get slow in the Me-262 (or any jet of that period) and you're in trouble, as the jet engines don't accellerate the a/c as fast as a propeller and they don't increase the CLmax of the wing as a propeller either.

The reason the Me-262 wasn't everything that was needed was mostly because of engine reliability, in almost every situation you had to be careful with these engines.

[delcyros]

If he thinks the the Me-262 could fly at its max speed for the whole duration of its flight he is completely clueless. Every Aircraft has its operting limitiation. On the Blackhawk we could not fly for more than 30 mintues at 100 percent power. We did not have to land after that 30 mintues but we had to drop back into the "Green" for a while.

That is the same for any aircraft including the Me-262.

That´s entirely the case and also true for the -262, Adler. But still I have to remind that the real advantage the jet´s had over the piston A/C was that they could (and did) keep up max. speed for much longer than did the piston ones.
Once they engaged WEP, they could access this power rating for 2-5 minutes max while a jet engined plane could much longer engage max. thrust setting (just keep an eye on the turbine temp but this has to do with altitude very much), usually in between 8 and 14 minutes for the -262 at 100%. Only the -162 Salamander had brief 115% overrew capabilities (30 sec.).

The ability to use max speed for a longer timeframe was one of the prime reasons why the comparably slow Meteor-MK I was that successful against V-1´s.

[Civettone]

Thanks for clearing that up, Erich.
When was the Me 262B-2 supposed to enter service?


Good post, Soren. If the pilot was properly instructed on the use of the jet engines, he would not throttle them up and down like with a piston engine. I also recall that's one of the things the first operational pilots of the He 162thought of the plane: it's a completely new way of flying where you have to let the aircraft fly and gently turn it around for a new pass at high speed. (Can't recall who that pilot was but can look it up if someone's interested.)

Kris

[Erich]

by fall of 45.

yes Soren is right about high speed turns but nothing tight or the wings would buckle. I've got some stories to tell by P-47 and P-51 pilots of the 356th fg about the 262 just "walking" away from the Allied fighters with the guys just watching without any hope of catching the jets

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by delcyros

That´s entirely the case and also true for the -262, Adler. But still I have to remind that the real advantage the jet´s had over the piston A/C was that they could (and did) keep up max. speed for much longer than did the piston ones.
Once they engaged WEP, they could access this power rating for 2-5 minutes max while a jet engined plane could much longer engage max. thrust setting (just keep an eye on the turbine temp but this has to do with altitude very much), usually in between 8 and 14 minutes for the -262 at 100%. Only the -162 Salamander had brief 115% overrew capabilities (30 sec.).

The ability to use max speed for a longer timeframe was one of the prime reasons why the comparably slow Meteor-MK I was that successful against V-1´s.

I've read somewhere for the -262 it was 6 minutes - I've been trying to find that reference...

Just for a comparison - the L-29 that I fly -100% for 6 minutes. 96% for 30 minutes and 94% normal operations. On Initial take off and climb I leave 100%, throttle back to 96% and when I leave the pattern I keep the throttle at 94% unless I want to climb, I go to 96% while watching the Turbine Inlet Temp.