Fw better then Me-262?

[Hunter368]

I do agree the ME-262 does make a better bomber killer than fighter, b/c of many reasons.

[Erich]

gee's I am so confused now, I will refrain from posting a response .......

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

There have been P-38 pilots who turned with the Zero below 300 mph - more the exception than the rule, but it was done...
And you are correct

I do believe this is a case of the Zeke pilot not knowing he's being attacked, cause the P-38 wasn't worth a penny in a turn fight unless going REALLY slow - but even then the Zeke is still overwhelmingly superior.

[Civettone]

Perhaps he's talking about the late P-38J and the P-38L with the hydraulic flaps? That apparently made the P-38 the best turner of ALL USAAF fighters!



Kris

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

I do believe this is a case of the Zeke pilot not knowing he's being attacked, cause the P-38 wasn't worth a penny in a turn fight unless going REALLY slow - but even then the Zeke is still overwhelmingly superior.

If the Zero (or Oscar) is in a 30 or 40 degree bank, he knows something is happening. I posted this earlier for one example, again more the exception than the rule...

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Perhaps he's talking about the late P-38J and the P-38L with the hydraulic flaps? That apparently made the P-38 the best turner of ALL USAAF fighters!



Kris

Actually the P-38 D was the first model with improved fowler flaps that could be deployed to tightern the turning radius. Again, more the exception than the rule and only done by a select few...

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

If the Zero (or Oscar) is in a 30 or 40 degree bank, he knows something is happening.

Not necessarily no. The Zeke pilot might have been concerned with another a/c, watching it carefully. Or he might have thought that there's no way a heavy bird like the P-38 is going to have a chance in even the slightest of turns and therefore chose to retain as much speed as possible for when the P-38 overshoots.

There are litterally hundreds of possible reasons for why the Zeke pilot was shot down, and since we weren't in the cockpit we can only guess.

I posted this earlier for one example, again more the exception than the rule...

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

There has been debates about this before, and even with the help of the fowler flaps the P-38 isn't going to out-turn or even turn with a Zeke in a hard turn, its simply impossible.

In TAIC report No.38 from April 1945 it is made clear that from SL and up, even with the help of various combinations of maneuver and dive recovery flaps, the Zeke 52 (A6M5) is on the P-38's tail within approx. one turn.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

Not necessarily no. The Zeke pilot might have been concerned with another a/c, watching it carefully. Or he might have thought that there's no way a heavy bird like the P-38 is going to have a chance in even the slightest of turns and therefore chose to retain as much speed as possible for when the P-38 overshoots.

There are litterally hundreds of possible reasons for why the Zeke pilot was shot down, and since we weren't in the cockpit we can only guess.

I disagree Soren - you have flown aircraft - there is no reason why in the would you would fly around with your aircraft continually banked 30 or 40 degress - if one was avoiding enemy contact the usual method was to fly zig zag patterns and never stay straight and level -

Originally Posted by Soren

There has been debates about this before, and even with the help of the fowler flaps the P-38 isn't going to out-turn or even turn with a Zeke in a hard turn, its simply impossible.

Not unless you use diffenterial throttle settings, another issue discussed before and a technique that was used by a few exceptional P-38 pilots - not the norm or sane thing to do, but in fact it was done successfully.

Originally Posted by Soren

In TAIC report No.38 from April 1945 it is made clear that from SL and up, even with the help of various combinations of maneuver and dive recovery flaps, the Zeke 52 (A6M5) is on the P-38's tail within approx. one turn.

In a "normal" combat situation. The A6M5 was the more maneuvable of the Zero line - I'd like to see data with an A6M3...

Again, I'm not saying this was done as a normal combat SOP - it was possible however to turn with the Zero and Oscar in a p-38 and a very few select pilots accomplished this task....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Every fighter in the world could be outturned by a Zero, even today's fighters.

And I still disagree with the Me-262. Again there is more to it than speed and performance.

We can not change history so we can not talk about what if the Germans had done this with the Me-262.

It is proven fact that the construction was shotty because of disimiliar metals. It is a proven fact that the engines were unreliable. It is a proven fact (as all early jet fighters were) that they were not really maintenance friendly.

The list of problems with the Me-262 can go on and on.

Was she a step in the right direction? Absolutely. Could she have been the best? Yes but this is not about could have should have...

I would rather have 100 reliable Fw-190s which were good eneoght o tangle with the allies than 1 flying Me-262. And therefore the Me-262 is not the best in my opinion.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I would rather have 100 reliable Fw-190s which were good eneoght o tangle with the allies than 1 flying Me-262. And therefore the Me-262 is not the best in my opinion.

BINGO!

[Gnomey]

Agreed Chris and Joe. The German's at the end of the war needed numbers of reliable aircraft (such as the 190 and 109) rather than small numbers of complex unreliable next generation aircraft such as the Me-262.

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

If the Zero (or Oscar) is in a 30 or 40 degree bank, he knows something is happening. I posted this earlier for one example, again more the exception than the rule...

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

Anyone have anymore information on the paratroop raid performed by the Japanese whilst he was based on the Philippines?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I disagree Soren - you have flown aircraft - there is no reason why in the would you would fly around with your aircraft continually banked 30 or 40 degress - if one was avoiding enemy contact the usual method was to fly zig zag patterns and never stay straight and level -

Like I said there are hundreds of possible reasons for why the Zeke pilot was in a 30 degree continious bank, and one of them could be that he was convinced than a twin engined a/c couldn't possibly follow even a mild turn - Zeke pilots were used to easily out-turn every single enemy fighter they met, and this would've let to cockiness in turn & burn fights.

Another possible reason is he was scanning for fighters, making a mild turn to preserve speed, as speed was very crucial when fighting the US fighters.

He could also have been trailing another US fighter, etc etc...

I wouldn't zig zag against a much faster opponent, I'd turn hard to either side and hope I've timed it right.

Not unless you use diffenterial throttle settings, another issue discussed before and a technique that was used by a few exceptional P-38 pilots - not the norm or sane thing to do, but in fact it was done successfully.
In a "normal" combat situation. The A6M5 was the more maneuvable of the Zero line - I'd like to see data with an A6M3...

The A6M3 mod.32 and A6M5 are pretty much the same except the A6M5 has rounded wing tips and a higher permissable dive speed. The scenario would be the same against a A6M3, if the Zeke pilot wants to turn-fight the P-38 doesn't stand a chance.

Again, I'm not saying this was done as a normal combat SOP - it was possible however to turn with the Zero and Oscar in a p-38 and a very few select pilots accomplished this task....

I understand, however I disagree on it being possible if the Zeke pilot really wants to turn fight.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

Like I said there are hundreds of possible reasons for why the Zeke pilot was in a 30 degree continious bank, and one of them could be that he was convinced than a twin engined a/c couldn't possibly follow even a mild turn - Zeke pilots were used to easily out-turn every single enemy fighter they met, and this would've let to cockiness in turn & burn fights.

A lot of speculation there Soren, you forgot to throw in the 150 hour pilot that could barely fly the aircraft....

Originally Posted by Soren

Another possible reason is he was scanning for fighters, making a mild turn to preserve speed, as speed was very crucial when fighting the US fighters.

He could also have been trailing another US fighter, etc etc...

I wouldn't zig zag against a much faster opponent, I'd turn hard to either side and hope I've timed it right.

At a continual 30 to 40 degree bank angle the pilot is either going to get real tired or real sick...

Originally Posted by Soren

The A6M3 mod.32 and A6M5 are pretty much the same except the A6M5 has rounded wing tips and a higher permissable dive speed. The scenario would be the same against a A6M3, if the Zeke pilot wants to turn-fight the P-38 doesn't stand a chance.

The A6M3 was not as maneuverable but still a stellar turner....

Originally Posted by Soren

I understand, however I disagree on it being possible if the Zeke pilot really wants to turn fight.

I think we're going to agree to disagree - my point again is the scenario shown is more the exception than the rule. Even those pilots who accomplished this did not encourage the same tactics among their flock.

"The Jap fighter planes have all been very maneuverable and when flown by an experienced pilot become a most difficult target to destroy. Fortunately however, the majority or Japanese pilots encountered are not of this calibre. They are excellent stick and rudder men, but their weakness is that all their maneuvers are evenly coordinated. They make use of sharp turns and aerobatic maneuvers, seldom using skids, slips, or violent uncoordinated maneuvers in their evasive tactics. Another characteristic of the younger pilots is their definite lack of alertness." Gerry Johnson, 1944

Twelve to One

[Soren]

The last part of your quote supports one of my speculations, the Zeke pilot probably hadn't seen the P-38 coming in at him.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

The last part of your quote supports one of my speculations, the Zeke pilot probably hadn't seen the P-38 coming in at him.

Either that or he was crapping his pants as 4 .50s and a 20mm flash was coming his way....