Fw187 could have been German P-38?

[nuuumannn]

True, but they could bolt in the Merlin XX into a Spitfire I or II in late 1940, since they were in production.

Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.

 

[Kevin J]

Without having read all of the old part of the thread, I think Tomo have a good point. Even at 360 mph it would still just be an airplane, not a revolution. Useful but not in itself decisive.

As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.

I always liked the Fw 187 but have sobered up on its unlimited potential over the years. Maybe too much is made dependent on how much better it would have been at one of the Bf 110's roles during the specific event the Battle of Britain. Even then, the latter might have done better if not hampered by unsound tactics, that goes for the bf 109 too. It's quite another matter whether BoB was winnable for Germany, I have no very firm opinion on that.

One thing I rarely, if ever, have seen commented on in the many Fw 187-related threads throughout the forum is one problems of improving/updating it (but I have not read through all of them). That is, specifically, the fact that some instrumentation was mounted on the inner engine nacelles, as there was not room in the cockpit, rather like the Hs 129. The extra crewman in the two-seater was placed behind the pilot, but where to put additional stuff demanded by upgrades and additional roles without enlarging the with of the fuselage, compromizing performance?

As said, a fine aircraft no doubt with much potential, but still 'only' an aircraft.

If you consider that 75% of P-38 losses in the 1942 Aleutians campaign were weather / navigation related then clearly having a navigator in a long range twin is essential for at least the first half of WW2. So the single seat Fw 187 might only be useful in the BoB Summer 1940, unless anyone here can think of another theatre where long range navigation is easy enough for just the pilot to handle.

 

[tomo pauk]

Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers. I also didn't say it would be magiced out of thin air in 1940 - its development timeline meant that it was being worked on for high altitude bombers in 1940 - 1941. If impetus was given for it to be pressed for urgent fighter development, there's no reason why the first 60 Series Merlin engined Spitfires couldn't have been in service by late 41, given the time it took for the Spit Vs to be modified on the production line by fitting the 60 Series engine and their introduction into service in 1942.

You're probably right that Merlin 60 was bench-tested in 1940. My idea, and I still think it has merit, is that Merlin 60 in service use during the BoB requires time travel, since not just a prototype engine is not fully tested & aproved, but historically RR was barely making enough of Merlin XXs in 1940 to cater both for Hurricane and Spitfire (thus Spitfire III is cancelled).

Yes, you're right about tactics; it does depend on how the type was used in action, which would define what measures were to be taken against it, but my point is that to presume that if a qualitative advantage of any sort was being introduced on the front line, it would be folly to assume that the British would do nothing. The Fw 190's appearance spurred considerable development of the Spitfire, as we know and it was Lord Hives of RR who raised the question of putting the 60 Series Merlin into a Spitfire.

Appearance of the Fw 190 was a shock since it meant introduction of an enemy fighter that is not just faster and climbs better than RAF's best fighter, it also rolls much better than either Spitfire or Bf 109 at any speed, and sports a much better canopy to improve situational awareness. The 360 mph Fw 187 will not introduce anything of the listed vs. Spitfire I/II while being a bigger A/C so the RAF pilots can spot it much easier than the 109, and also being a bigger target.

I highly doubt that such an important project would be placed solely under the guise of a satellite factory, particularly if it is to be upgraded and advanced beyond the early model. Again, what are resources not being devoted to if the Fw 187 is built? FW doen't have infinte manpower to just conjure an aeroplane and its subsequent development out of thin air.

(I know this is not replied to me, but still)
Development of the F w187 is basically over before 1939. Cancel the orders for the Bf 110 that Focke Wulf received, and press on with the Fw 187. Germany was all too happy to get Czech tanks, guns, trucks and whatever, so receiving the aero engines from Avia (firmly under German control by mid-1939) is no stretch.

Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.

Late 1940 is too late for the BoB - Merlin 45 lags by some 6 months behind the Merlin XX.

 

[nuuumannn]

You're probably right that Merlin 60 was bench-tested in 1940. My idea, and I still think it has merit, is that Merlin 60 in service use during the BoB requires time travel, since not just a prototype engine is not fully tested & aproved, but historically RR was barely making enough of Merlin XXs in 1940 to cater both for Hurricane and Spitfire (thus Spitfire III is cancelled).

Late 1940 is too late for the BoB - Merlin 45 lags by some 6 months behind the Merlin XX.

Yeah, agreed Tomo, but this is where you're not reading the post I wrote - I didn't state that any of these things would be ready for the BoB, but historically the Merlin 45 engined Spit II flew for the first time in late 1940, so you would have one as an interim until the 60 Series Merlin is ready for production and service in late 41. This time line fits because traditionally the Spit IX entered service in 1942 and RR had been working on the 60 Series Merlin throughout 1940. Besides, since the Fw 187 is available before the BoB, the British are certainly going to be aware of it having battled with it over France, so who says that traditional dates are going to be observed when RR start each variant of the Merlin?

Again, my point is that historically things happened over a given time period; had the threat been identifided sooner, mightn't a response be forthcoming sooner, which would lead to what happened across the same time it took, but earlier?

The key to what ifs is that they didn't happen, so you can presume anything...

 

[wuzak]

If the RAF are aware of teh Fw 187 in 1939, then perhaps they proceed with a Merlin X version of the Spitfire I.

In the Spitfire III the Merlin X gave a top speed of nearly 400mph, so a Spitfire I with the Merlin X should give performance superior to the Fw 187.

The Merlin X being available earlier than the XX, but with lower performance.

 

[GrauGeist]

No matter how promising the 187 might have been, we know good and well that had it gone into production, the RLM would have stalled production with requests for variants like a dive-bomber, night-fighter, ground-attack, up-armed Jabo and so on...

 

[Shortround6]

If you consider that 75% of P-38 losses in the 1942 Aleutians campaign were weather / navigation related then clearly having a navigator in a long range twin is essential for at least the first half of WW2. So the single seat Fw 187 might only be useful in the BoB Summer 1940, unless anyone here can think of another theatre where long range navigation is easy enough for just the pilot to handle.

Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?


AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)

1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .

 

[Kevin J]

Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?


AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)

1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .

To be honest, I think the Me 110 is a much better choice. It's more versatile. We had the Whirlwind, where did we use it? The SW Approaches to the English Channel and only 2 squadrons, better weather down there. So maybe the Luftwaffe does the same, builds just over 100 Fw 187 max. It's not a game changer.

 

[tomo pauk]

If the RAF are aware of teh Fw 187 in 1939, then perhaps they proceed with a Merlin X version of the Spitfire I.

In the Spitfire III the Merlin X gave a top speed of nearly 400mph, so a Spitfire I with the Merlin X should give performance superior to the Fw 187.

The Merlin X being available earlier than the XX, but with lower performance.

Care to shed some details about Merlin X/Spitfire III combo? I know that 'ordinary' Spitfire III (Merlin XX aboard) was good for some 400 mph unarmed.

...
1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .

1 - how much is a stretch to add another pair of MG 17s to the Fw 187?
2 - would the lack of LR radio be any more of the problem as it will be for BF 109 that carries a drop tank?
3 - Czech were making the Y12crs - 860 HP at 4000 m (used on their fighters, plus on Yugoslav IK-3s). That computes into about 1/3rd more power at same altitude than the Jumo 211G.

 

[wuzak]

Care to shed some details about Merlin X/Spitfire III combo? I know that 'ordinary' Spitfire III (Merlin XX aboard) was good for some 400 mph unarmed.

The prototype Mk III first flew with a Merlin X.

The performance figures in Morgan and Shacklady are with the Merlin X. Can't recall if they have performance with the Merlin XX.

I will check later.

 

[wuzak]

Spitfire Mk.III

Engines:
Rolls-Royce Merlin X (RM.2SM). Electric starter. 1,265hp @ 9,500ft, 1,145hp @ 16,750ft.
Rolls-Royce Merlin XX (RM.3SM)/ Electric starter. 1,280hp @ 3,000rpm.
Rolls-Royce Merlin 61

Propeller:
Supermarine 3-blade C/S VP Jablo. Diameter 10ft 9in.

Coolant:
70% water, 30% glycol. 16.5gals. in system.

Fuel:
100 octane.
Capacity (fuselage) upper 53gals, lower 46.5, total 99.5.

Oil:
6.8gals. Consumption 1.75 to 2.5 gal/hr.

Armour:

Armament:
A and B wing or 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon and 4 x .303 Browning m/gs.

Cine Camera

Radio:
TR1133

Performance (Merlin X):
Max speed: 340mph @ 5,000ft, 360mph @ 10,000ft, 369mph @ 15,000ft, 400mph @ 21,000ft
Max dive: 450mph
Take-off run: 250yds
Climb to: 15,000ft 4.5 mins, 20,000ft 6.4mins
Service ceiling: 38,000ft
Stall: flaps and u/c up 93mph
Landing run: 600yds


From Morgan and Shacklady, Spitfire, the History, p132.

 

[tomo pauk]

Spitfire Mk.III

Engines:
Rolls-Royce Merlin X (RM.2SM). Electric starter. 1,265hp @ 9,500ft, 1,145hp @ 16,750ft.
Rolls-Royce Merlin XX (RM.3SM)/ Electric starter. 1,280hp @ 3,000rpm.
Rolls-Royce Merlin 61

Propeller:
Supermarine 3-blade C/S VP Jablo. Diameter 10ft 9in.

Coolant:
70% water, 30% glycol. 16.5gals. in system.

Fuel:
100 octane.
Capacity (fuselage) upper 53gals, lower 46.5, total 99.5.

Oil:
6.8gals. Consumption 1.75 to 2.5 gal/hr.

Armour:

Armament:
A and B wing or 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon and 4 x .303 Browning m/gs.

Cine Camera

Radio:
TR1133

Performance (Merlin X):
Max speed: 340mph @ 5,000ft, 360mph @ 10,000ft, 369mph @ 15,000ft, 400mph @ 21,000ft
Max dive: 450mph
Take-off run: 250yds
Climb to: 15,000ft 4.5 mins, 20,000ft 6.4mins
Service ceiling: 38,000ft
Stall: flaps and u/c up 93mph
Landing run: 600yds


From Morgan and Shacklady, Spitfire, the History, p132.

Thank you for this.
However, reading through the part of the book that deals with Spitfire III leaves a lot to be desired. Like, on th pg. 128:"The RM2SM engine raised the fully supercharged altitude to 25000 ft as compared to 16500 ft of the Merlin II". What does that mean, that RM2SM engine was providing the +6.25 psi at 25000 ft? Ain't going to happen until Merlin XX with it's much improved inlet elbow, as seen here: graph
Plus: "...and preliminary figures issued by RR in December [of 1939, my remark] predicted a speed of 399 mph @ 19,500 ft (16 lb boost) and 394 (11 lb) at 21,500 ft" - this boost, and hence the expected power at specified altitudes is impossible even for the Merlin XX, that was good for +8 psi at 19500 ft.
(note: M & S use, for example, '6 and 1/4 lb' in order to state boost for what we'd nowadays say '+6.25 psi'; unfortunately, ilustration for the Spit III in the book depicts it as armed aircraft that can add to the confusion about the state of aircraft during the tests)
Supermarine's specification for the Merlin X powered Spitfire III was to weight 4926 lbs (tare) and 6350 (ready for take off, with 'service load' of 608 lbs included), while 1st actual prototype of Spit III weighted 5127 lbs (tare), all up weight of of 6572 (but no guns & ammo) at 1st.
Then, on pg. the Merlin XX is stated as engine on two prototypes (one being a conversion), without a quote that actual engine change took place.

My conclusion thus far: Spitfire III was powered by Merlin XX during flight tests. I also wonder whether the test reports of the SPitfire III ever published.

 

[dedalos]

Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?


AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)

1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
What good made the spare drums to the Bf110 since it lacked the performance and agility to use them against the spitfire? Even after the Fw187 exhausted its 20 mm ammo still had 4 mg s on the cental axis. enough against a spitfire I.
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
If they escort the bombers,then the 187 s would be close enough to them to use the short range radio. Then the bombers can communicate with the base. In Frei Jagd mission they could penetrate as deep as the Bf109s but stay much longer if radio contact was the problem. But i believe you exaggerate the need to keep touch with base for the entire mission
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much.
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520).
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .

I would like to remind that the Fw187 was not a paper aircraft. It was flown in its earlier form, and in 1942 received orders for production. Detailed design for his evolved form was made from Fw , .and detailed performance calculations with what ever inaccuracies they maybe had.
It was vastly superior to the BF 110 as air superiority fighter. That s beyond question. And we do know that in Africa in 1941 the bf110s exchanged losses with the hurricanes almost 1:1
The Battle of Britain could not be won because of logistics shortages and bad tactics. But The presence of a capable long range fighter like the FW187 would have caused more losses to the FC. Also in the next years would be extremely valuable to the LW. Battling Mosquitos over Biscay, chasing Recce aircraft all over occupied Europe, escorting bomber attacks against convoys at least twice the range the 109 could, escorting bomber attacks against Moscow and targets beyond,fly recce missions itself faster than all existing german aircraft.It would be a much better choice for wilde Sau missions than the Fw 190 . Also fly day high cover for the Fw190s of Jg2 and Jg26, on the channel front. The only advantage of the Bf 110 was bomb lifting capacity. But who cares. The competition was for a long range fighter. Also even in this role, only in Russia the Bf110 would be better . For hit and run missions against england the Fw187 would be superior to both the 110 and the Fw190.
On all cases i am referring to the single seat version.
Personally i believe that with DB series of engines , as were fitted to the various Bf109 versions, would have some performance advantage ,even against the spitfire, at least until the series 60 merlins. Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.
As for productions resources, it could have used the production of the Bf110, Me 210/410.

 

[Admiral Beez]

LOVE the Hornet! It is one seriously good-looking plane with a wonderful excess of power. Wish we had some around the warbird circuit today!

Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class' low hangar.

As for the Fw 187, I'd like to see it succeed in the CAS role rather than air to air combat. For that role you've got the Bf 109, Fw 190, Me 262, etc. But there's nothing like German IL-2.

 

[wuzak]

Personally i believe that with DB series of engines , as were fitted to the various Bf109 versions, would have some performance advantage ,even against the spitfire, at least until the series 60 merlins.

That'd be a problem, because when the Fw 187 would be avaialbel in sufficient numbers the 2 stage Spitfires would have been well and truly in production.

Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.

The Db 603 was significantly bigger and heavier than the Db 601/605. Adapting it would require an extensive redesign.

 

[Shortround6]

Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.

British just stick Griffins in the Mosquito, case closed on the Fw 187.

This is what I hate about the FW 187, it changes to whatever configuration, engine or performance is wanted or needed at any point in time in the argument.

It is like trying to nail pudding to a wall with a 3lb hammer.

I do think it is a cool looking plane and aside from taking up some space for fuel I have no idea why everybody hates the rear seat guy.
let him play with the radio and give him a spare drum for each of the early 20mm cannon. leaving him home doesn't affect the performance to any great degree.

 

[GrauGeist]

Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class' low hangar.

View attachment 559269

As for the Fw 187, I'd like to see it succeed in the CAS role rather than air to air combat. For that role you've got the Bf 109, Fw 190, Me 262, etc. But there's nothing like German IL-2.

The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.

It was not?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.

I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what's your issue with the Me 262?

 

[GrauGeist]

I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what's your issue with the Me 262?

You said that you would like to see the Fw187 succeed in the CAS rile rather than air to air combat (aka fighter) and continued on to say that the Bf109, Fw190 and Me262 were better suited for that role.

Hence my reply. The Fw187 was better suited as a fighter as was it's initial concept/design. The Me262 was indeed classified as a "fighter" but it was a "heavy fighter", falling into the category with the Bf110, Me410 amd so on - it's strengths lay in interception where it's speed and firepower were it's strength.

It's survivability against Allied fighters dropped exponentially, especially when factoring in how many hours were on it's engines, the experience level of it's pilot (and that of it's adversary), how long it had been aloft and at what altitude it was engaged/engaging.