germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by Smokey

Fighter bombers are far more accurate than heavy bombers can be very effective

Yep - and an Fw-190 can carry at least as much as a Do-17, then fight its way back home.

[Smokey]

Massed fighter bomber attacks with top cover against first the radar stations, then the fighter airfields would be quite effective.

Also the Luftwaffe night blitz using intersecting directional radio beams could have been mounted on a much larger scale with Stalin defeated.

Doenitz would have again pushed for a massive increase in U boat production

[syscom3]

I wouldnt exect a second BoB untill late spring 1942. Here is the US fighter output throughout 1941 untill midyear 1942.

P38 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 700
F5 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 120

A36 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 600

P39 production through June 30 1942 was approx. 1000

I dont have the production numbers for the P40, but it must have been close to the P39.

Just the shear numbers of allied pilots and aircraft, each capable in its own flight regime, would have dealt serious loss's to the Luftwaffe. To think that the Germans could have replicated its success's from 1940 is wishfull thinking.

Remember, American production is ramping up and more and more men and material would be available each month.

[Jabberwocky]

Just been doing a little research on USAAF fighter deployments and production.

P-38 production was pretty slow before the F model. There were only 68 P-38s on hand for the USAAF by the end of 1941, all P-38D or earlier. There were only 207 P-38s built in 1941, compared to ~1400 built in 1942.

The first major production model is the P-38E with around 210 produced. Even the USAAF didn't really consider it a 'combat ready' airplane, that was reserved for the heavier and more powerful P-38F. Between January and September 1942, there were just 525 P-38F airframes delivered. The first USAAF engagement of LuftWaffe aircraft didn't come until August, 1942, when P-38Fs of the 33rd fighter squadron engaged a FW 200 Condor off the coast of Iceland and shot it down. By the end of August 1942 there were just 179 P-38s deployed in England. The first operation sorties were flown from England on 28 August, 1942.

P-51/A-36A production and deployment in the USAAF really doesn't take off until 1943. The USAAF didn't order the first production batch of P-51s for itself until April, 1942, almost 2 years after the first British orders. The first squadrons to operate the A36 were the 27th and 86th, who didn't see combat until mid 1943. The first USAAF P-51 Mustang units saw their first combat in a similar time period.

British deployment of the Mustang was understandably a little earlier. First combat was recorded at the end of July, 1942 and the first victories in August. By the end of October 1942 there are 14 Mustang I squadrons operating out of the UK, mostly in the tactical reconnisance and low level fighter regiemes. The P-51 was significantly quicker (25-45 mph) than the Spitfire V at all alts below about 20,000 feet, but it was 5 minutes slower to get to 20,000 feet and less manouverable above this height. Typhoons and Mustangs would of had handled the bulk of the low level interception duties, the Tyffie being 15-20 mph faster still than the Mustang.

The comparison here is Spitfire and Typhoon production and deployment. By September 1942, 515 Typhoons had been handed over to the RAF, with some 13 squadrons operating the type and more converting. Similar production numbers to the P-38, but they didn't have to do the trans-Atlantic flight and had the luxury of using existing facilities. In August 1942 the RAF had 42 squadrons of Mk V Spitfires, 4 Mk IX and 2 Mk VI and 8 with Mk IIb/c, all in the UK. There were also several fighter bomber Hurricane squadrons (rapidly being phased out in favour of the Typhoon) and 2 Westland Whirlwind squadrons, used for long range escort. So British fighters are still going to make up the bulk of the fighter forces in the UK.

I'd say that until at least late 1942 or early 1943, when the P-47C and P-38G really start to roll off the production lines, the main fighters of the USAAF would be the P-40 and P-39. Both are capable fighters in their element, but probably not quite up to the level of the Spitfire V and 109F or Typhoon Ib and 190A4/5 seeing service at the same time. I think both would of struggled to intercept raids coming in at anything above 20,000 feet.

The premium fighters in the USAAF by August 1942 would be the P-38F, with the Mustang I and P-47C entering the fight in a few months time. P-40s and P-39s would account for the bulk of the fighter force until well into 1943, possibly all the way to the end of the year?

[Smokey]

Not only is there debate about how many and what type of US fighters would have been available in this time period, but after the defeat of Stalin the German leadership may have put more of its industrial strength into U boat production and this could have reduced the number of US fighters getting to the UK even more greatly

[evangilder]

Maybe, the P-38 could fly across on ferry flights though. So at least some of them would not be coming by sea.

[syscom3]

The U-Boat offensive, although serious, would not have sunk all of the ships heading to the UK. The time to build a sub and train a crew takes several months. If the scenario of more U-Boats being made, then the scenario should also include no deployments untill middle 1942 at the earliest.

I was also thinking of the fighter bomber role for the FW190, and figured it wouldnt have made much of a tactical difference. All it takes is for it to be "possibly" intercepted and it would have to drop its bombs in order to fight.

The P38 models available in the early part of 1942, were still good enough to go after bombers and do some damage. Remember it was fast and could still climb very fast.

If the allied command was smart (which they were) and forced flight disipline (which they could) and had each available fighter to stay at their best altitudes, then they could have mauled the Luftwaffe.

[Smokey]

With Stalin defeated, and no UK/US - Soviet convoys to worry about, surely Doenitz could have swithced more U boats to attacking US - UK convoys.
This could have seen a massive increse in Allied shipping losses.

The FW 190s would have had escorts, diversionary raids, and would have approached at low altitude.

[Gemhorse]

Those convoys to Russia were a huge drain on Allied resources, so switched to just US/UK, they would've been beefier....Even if Germany had defeated Russia, the Luftwaffe were still seriously depleted on the West European front....I doubt they could've remustered enough for another BoB and overcome the Fighter Command build-up by then....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In 1942 the Luftwaffe would still have been hurting from the Eastern Front. It is very difficult to say that they could have put on a BoB II in 1942. Defeating Russia certianly would have delayed the outcome of the war. Changed it? No. However it might have given time for the Germans to develop there more advanced designs. I believe there best bet would have been to fight a defensive air campain against the allied bombers and hope for a stalemate and a truce (which would not have happened).

[pbfoot]

I think in 42 if the Germans had suceeded in Russia the Luftwaffe would have been a far more formidable force then in 1940, maritime resources would have been moved to blockade the UK instead of inderdicting the Murmansk convoys the german navy was at its peak and i don't think the UK would be able to mount much of bomber campaign simply suppling the UK would be far more challenging

[Glider]

In 1942 the German Navy would have had about the same strength. U Boat production was already the No 1 priority and you cannot just increase production. The RN was a lot stronger in 1942 and the Germans would never have achieved the goal of an invasion. If they tried our bombers were of such power with Lancasters, Halifax's and Sterlings entering combat in numbers, that any building up of landing barges ect would have been pulverised.

The Luftwaffe would have been a more formidable force but then again so was the RAF. Our night defences which were close to negligable in 1940, were the strongest in the world by some margin and experienced.

So the Germans would have had to come by daylight. This was the nub of the problem, German bombers were almost the same in 1942 as 1940. He111, Ju88 were the backbone, the only real improvement would be the introduction of the Do217. Fighters were almost standardised on the Spit 5 which was good enough for the 109F and the Spit IX entering service. 190's would have been a problem of course but if used on tip and run raids they achieve little and even the Typhoon did quite well in defending against these types of raid. If the 190 is flying over then leave it.
Nope the Germans would not have achieved much

[book1182]

I agree with Glider. The Germans would have a few new aircraft but they were not of the bomber type. They never solved the problem of having a heavy bomber. Also, the British had by that time built up a force that could with stand an aerial attack and not relied on the few but more like the many.

It would have been a good battle to watch though.

[syscom3]

Dont forget the USN would provide a very strong force to help take care of the German navy.

By summer of 1942, there were three fast battleships available.

[carpenoctem1689]

The german navy wouldnt stand the slightest bit of a chance against the royal navy nor the united states navy, much less if they were combined. The americans, already moe devoted to defeating germany before japan, would have been able to divert all supply vessels bound for russia to the UK, and they would have been able to better protect them, along with the royal navy. Now the war in africa was just about over for rommel and his afrika korps, and the italians, and had a second battle of britain arose, the landings in italy, truly wasteful when you think about it, would have been devoted to more useful causes. British and American bombers were much better at this point in the war, where as german bombers saw little improvement in defense or speed and were virtually the same aircraft. The Fw-190, a simply stunning example of an aircraft, wouldnt be available in enough numbers to combat the american and british airforces. The battle would have caused many casualties on both sides, but would have inevitablly ended all in the same.