germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like

[syscom3]

Ive always wondered how the F4F Wildcat would have held up in this type of scenario.

[pbfoot]

I think Africa after the eastern front would probably have been under axis control as the Germans would have not been as restrained for men and materials after overcoming the USSR. I believe it would have much worse for the Brits then the first BoB in all aspects. I"m trying to find out how many Uboats were available in 42 compared with 40

[syscom3]

Dont forget to factor in the USN ships that would have been available

[carpenoctem1689]

The Italian and north african area completely, though more heavily contested for sure, would have ended up in the hands of the British and the americans. Once the Vichy surrendered to the americans, and the americans started sending supplies to the theatre, the germans and the italians lost hope. i mean the italian divisions had horrible combat records for the most part, because regardless of the war, italy was in turmoil, and there were already plots to overthrow mussolini. The regia aeronautica was hopeless compared to the royal air force and that of the americans. The fighters were improving yes, but the aircraft werent produced in the numbers needed, and everything was always in short supply. They lacked adequate tanks and vehicle transport, making advances and retreats too hard, because they werent a mobile force. The german afrika corps, lead by erwin rommel, while a crack force was always short of supplies, logistical problems and land transport being a huge problem. They never had enough sea transpot either, and malta based british aircraft were taking there toll on the ships. They couldnt have pulled off reinforcement fast enough after the soviets were defeated, not enough to do anything but prolong the conflict a little. Even if they got the initial men and matieral there, there wasnt enough fuel to go around yet, and distribution of russian stocks by a germany without overland or airborne and sea transport in plemtiful supply in the medditerranian theatre, it wasnt looking good.. My view

[102first_hussars]

Though even with Russia being conquered I dont see Hitler allowing Russians to join their airforce or Army, I guess in terms of supply the Allies would be in trouble, because now the Germans have just aquired a land enriched with raw materials, but alot of the tank and Airplane factory's Russia had were mostly on the far east side of the country, I think Hitler would use that as a way to help the Japanese conquer China
and when that is all done with they would turn their attention towards England.

With all of that air power mustered by Germany and Japan combined it would be dam near impossible for the U.S and Brits to sustain a defence to ensure a victory.

[syscom3]

Wouldnt Germany need a huge army just for the occupation of Russia?

[102first_hussars]

They did have a huge army by that time, besides Operation Barberosa would very well have been a success if Hitler wasnt such a control freak.

[Glider]

102 I am afraid that you are I believe way off the mark. If German bombers couldn't live in the skys over the UK Jap bombers would have been shot down in huge numbers. As for the fighters, the best the Japs had was the Zero and that had significant disadvantages against Spits assuming that we didn't get sucked into low speed dogfighting.

The Germans had more U Boats in 1942 but we handled them and they couldn't build any more as the shipyards were working flat out anyway.

[carpenoctem1689]

The occupation of the soviet union in itself would have been a huge problem, granted the germans had a huge army, but revolt and resistance movements would have been prevalent, roads and railways, bridges and everything would have been cut off, destroyed, mined. The germans lacked overland vehicles up to the challenge of supplying everyone, and the luftwaffe would have at the time been too severly depleted. If stalin thought russia would truly fall, like they were on the brink, he would most likely have blown aircraft and tank production facilities and ordered the navy to scuttle itself, and for as much of everything to be destroyed. Supplying the italian and north african fronts with the supplies captured to prevent the ousting of the afrika korps from north africa, and maybe even the initial invasion of italy. Though that would have been pointless because many divisions would have been rushed from the eastern front to support the italian front. The war would have dragged on, but midway was done with, and the japanese navy was shot for the rest of the war, due to massive american production and dominance in both battleships and carries, not to mention hundreds of submarines (still had defective torpedoes, though soon corrected) and destroyers and cruisers. The japanese even if they captured china, again wouldnt have been able to divy up the benefits fast enough to make a difference before many more setbacks. Had this happened the war would have dragged on for two to maybe even three more years after 1945, but the end i believe would have been the same.

[carpenoctem1689]

The second battle of britain as a result of all of that would have been the same as the first, just prolonged, sorry had to post the end in a second one.

[102first_hussars]

Originally Posted by Glider

102 I am afraid that you are I believe way off the mark. If German bombers couldn't live in the skys over the UK Jap bombers would have been shot down in huge numbers. As for the fighters, the best the Japs had was the Zero and that had significant disadvantages against Spits assuming that we didn't get sucked into low speed dogfighting.

The Germans had more U Boats in 1942 but we handled them and they couldn't build any more as the shipyards were working flat out anyway.

Who cares man, thats irrelevent, during the Actual BoB the Luftwaffe had worn the RAF to its knees and we would have lost the war if Hitler hadnt decided to concentrate his air power on London instead of the Air Feilds, and lets just say that Japan didnt use its bombers, they just provided escort service, ok?, their fighters wipe us out before we can figure out how we can better them, the Zero may not have been better than the Spit, but the Zero was outstanding and the Japanese pilots were just That Dam Good

And about the U-boats, Im pretty sure Canada did most of the handling of the U-boats until the U.S navy went into high gear in the Atlantic, and from what ive learned the Canadian Navy just couldnt destroy enough of them to truly make a difference.

[Jabberwocky]

Popular misconception and BoB myth there I'm afraid Hussars.

The RAF was never 'at its knees'. At most there was significant pressure on some 11 Group airfields which may of caused the squadrons based there to relocate to fields further inland. No 10 and No 12 groups could of taken up the slack quite effectively, if No 11 group was forced to move further inland. The No 10 group Commander, Leigh-Mallory, actually complained that his squadrons weren't seeing enough action.

The main point of pressure on the RAF came in late August, when available pilot numbers began to drop due to 'wastage' and battle fatigue, causing Dowding to begin a classification and rotation system of frontline units. However, by October the activation of Polish squadrons and Commonwealth trained units went towards alleviating the pilot shortage.
At mid August, the height of the Battle period, the RAF had a deficiency of some 211 pilots against established strength. However, at the start of the Battle the RAF had a deficency of 386 pilots, reducing to a 79 man deficit at the end of July. By the end of October, it had a surplus of 69 combat pilots against established strength.

Reserve fighters available to the RAF never diped below 38 Class 1 Spitfires (Class 1 = ready for immediate used) and 78 Class 1 Hurricanes. At any one point in the Battle period, there were always more than 125 single seat fighters sitting in reservem ready for dispersal to active units. After the end of July, there were never less than 700 fighters available for operations by RAF fighter squadrons.

[delcyros]

Knowing their strategical shortages of having almost no heavy bombers (the few He-177 have been grounded due to various technical problems), no fleet worth mentioning and realizing the strategical advantage to defend an isle, I don´t belive that a second BoB would have happened. I mean it would only makes sense if a enduring victory over the skies of england (doubtful) could allow a invasion but this was beyond german capabilities.
Attention would therefor shift to Africa and the near east. Taking Egypt was well in their possibilities in 1942 and could seriously enleghten british convoilines to a way around Africa.
With additional forces they could hope to advance in the whole near eastern region as well.
Technically I would give the Jumo 222 a chance to be produced an masse. With all the ressources now avaiable in Russia this engine wouldn´t have forced to be canceled because of shortages. And with Jumo-222 the Ju-288 comes into the play and this undoubtly is what could fullfill any of the Luftwaffe´s bombers role.
However, the Bf-109 G2 already replaced most servicable F4 in late 42 and I rate it as an excellent fighter. Spit IX vs. G2 is an interesting pairing.

[carpenoctem1689]

I dont think the germans would have been able to take africa. Because by then the americans had forces on the way, torch wasnt far off at all, and the lend lease stuff was flowing more freely to the theater. The american troops were showing up, and the air forces were getting stronger. Rommel, an excellent leader, never had the logistics of reaching egypt, and couldnt have taken it had he got there. With the supplies in russia captured, the germans had no way of getting enough to africa to stop them from being ousted completely. The italian invasion, had it been handled the way it was, would have failed, because in the beginning it damn near did anyway. Overlord would have been much harder, because many more german divisions would have been freed up. However the end would have been the same, for both the battle of britain and the end of the war, because the germans, with enormous borders and the inevitable supply and resistance troubles would have had a hell of a time.

[syscom3]

I dont think the Germans would worry to much about Africa after a Russian capitulation. They would have turned whatever forces they culd spare from occupation duty towards the south and gone after the Iran/Iraq oilfields