germany beats russians in 41 what does 2nd BoB look like

[pbfoot]

what if the Luftwaffe faced the RAF after beating the Russians in 41 what does the 2nd BoB in 1942 look like

[syscom3]

With or without US involvement?

[pbfoot]

With US involvement

[Jabberwocky]

What period 1942? Early, mid, late? I can't say that much for the Luftwaffe, but the time period is very significant for the RAF.

It matters because the Spitfire IX with the Merlin 61 was introduced in July, significantly redressing the imbalance that existed between the Spitfire V and Fw-190 and Bf-109F4. The Spitfire VI was also introduced in mid 1942, flying its first combat sorties in April. The Spitfire VII started service in September. The Spitfire Vc became the new production standard Spitfire V in October 1941, with a heavier and slightly more refined airframe which would later be the basis for the Mk VIII, and Mk. XIV.

Similarly, the Typhoon really came of age as a fighter in late 1942. It exchanged the 12 .303 LMGs for 4 Hispanos and got rid of the "Austen 7" car style door and heavy cockpit framing in favour of a semi bubble canopy. Sabre reliability also shot up in the period (from 25 hour over hauls to 75-100 hour overhauls) when Bristol got involved in fixing some of the flaws in the sleeve-valve design for the Sabre.

So if it is in early 1942, the Luftwaffe have a significant advantage. No Spitfire IX and a Typhoon with chronic reliability problems. Front line fighters are 35-40 squadrons of Spitfire Vb, 4-6 squadrons of Spitfire Vc and 2 squadrons of Westland Whirlwinds, with about 12-16 squadrons still operating the Hurricane and Spitfire II. Beaufighters and the new night fighter Mosquitos can deal with the night blitz fairly well, but in daylight it is a different story.

Mid 1941 to mid 1942 is a period of almost absolute technical dominance for the Luftwaffe.

At the end of 1942, things look much better for the RAF. There are about 10 operational Spitfire IX squadrons, a few (2 or 3 ?) Typhoon wings coming on line, the high altitude Spitfire VI and VII start to see deployment. By February 1943 the Spitfire XII also starts deplyment.

[syscom3]

The US had the P38 and P47 finally in production in 1942. I wouldnt say any of the US bombers were ready though, although the A20 and B25 could have performed quick strikes on the channel to disrupt the German invasion buildup.

[plan_D]

I reckon Britain would have dealt another blow to any attempt by the Luftwaffe to crush the RAF in the British skies. Even with the technological supremecy of the Fw-190 and Bf-109F, they just weren't in any situation to completely wipe out the RAF. The RAF had well organised defensive tactics by then and were still out-producing Germany in aircraft production. With U.S involvement, there would be the P-47 and P-38 in their primary roles which were high altitude interceptors. The P-38 would most likely be the interceptor of choice, it would easily chew up the Luftwaffe's bomber arm.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by plan_D

I reckon Britain would have dealt another blow to any attempt by the Luftwaffe to crush the RAF in the British skies. Even with the technological supremecy of the Fw-190 and Bf-109F, they just weren't in any situation to completely wipe out the RAF. The RAF had well organised defensive tactics by then and were still out-producing Germany in aircraft production. With U.S involvement, there would be the P-47 and P-38 in their primary roles which were high altitude interceptors. The P-38 would most likely be the interceptor of choice, it would easily chew up the Luftwaffe's bomber arm.

Agreed pD. Britain would of survived another invasion attempt especially with US involvement. With the new fighteres coming online as Jabberwocky mentioned and US build-up increasing all the time. The Luftwaffe would have been hard pressed to win a second 'Battle of Britain'. I do not believe that they would of succeeded.

[Jabberwocky]

Any bomber that flies below 20,000 feet is going to be VERY vulnerale to the 4 Hispanos of the Typhoon. It really would of taken over the bomber destroyer role that the Hurricane played in the Battle of Britian. The high speed and concentrated firepower, combined with an excellent sighting view and the fact that it was a very stable gun platform, meant that He-111s, Do-217s and Ju-88s were far more vulnerable to a Typhoon than they had been to the Hurricane 2 years earlier. Like the Hurricane, it wasn't really a match lin a straight out fight with 109s or 190s unless flown VERY well.

The Tyffie would be the interceptor of choice for low level raids b fighter bombers. After all, the early Typhoons could do 375 mph at 8,500 feet and 400 mph + at 20,000 feet. Later improvements saw the Typhoon doing 395 mph at 9000 feet and 415 mph at 20,000 feet. While rate of climb was never spectacular, even the early versions could still get to 20,000 feet in 8 1/2 minutes, or 15,000 feet in 6 minutes. It had good success in 1943 chasing down low level 'tip and run' FW 190s over Southern England.

Assuming a late 1942 scenario, the USAAF has the P-38E and the P-47B available. Both have great potential, but really need to wait until the F and C models respectively until they are truly considered combat capable. The Lightning gets newer uprated Allisons and many refinements, and the P-47 gets new alieron and rudder surfaces and adds 8 inches to the front of the fuselage to alleviate some CoG problems. Neither were rolling off production lines until September 1942. So its going to be quite a few months before USAAF groups can convert, tran and deploy with them.

The most likely deployables for the USAAF are the P-40E, F, K and L and the P-39N.

[Parmigiano]

In my opinion Germany never had any chance to crush UK system with a bombing campaign, regardless how many RAF fighter were available.
Simply, even if unchallenged, the Luftwaffe never had enough bombers (in number and type) to do the job.

What Germany could have done, in case of victory in the East, would have been to keep UK isolated and wipe out from the skies any allied attempt to bomb Germany, at least for enough years to bring everything to a stall (just think what would have been the bomber offensive if Fritz could have used all the planes and pilots that were deployed on the russian front).

The only thing that might have changed this picture for one side or the other is the use of nuclear bombing.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

same as before, just faster with smaller turning circles...........

[Smokey]

What if the Goering and Hitler had concentrated all their aircraft on the radar chain and the RAF fighter airfields without being 'distracted' by the RAF bomber raids on Germany in 1940, which led to the blitz on UK cities and diverted a huge part of the Luftwaffe's strength in BoB 1?

Also there were very few bomb carrying BF 109s available in 1940. In 1942 there would be bomb carrying BF 109s AND FW 190s.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

bomb carrying -109s would do nothing, the 190s would do more but they would still require bombers to do lots of damage, and they were still using the same bombers as the first BoB!!

[Smokey]

Fighter bombers are far more accurate than heavy bombers can be very effective

[pbfoot]

What Germany could have done, in case of victory in the East, would

have been to keep UK isolated and wipe out from the skies any allied attempt to bomb Germany, at least for enough years to bring everything to a stall (just think what would have been the bomber offensive if Fritz could have used all the planes and pilots that were deployed on the Russian front).

i also think the above statement is true and i believe that the UK would be extremely isolated hard pressed for fuel food and armament the U boats would have attempted to put a noose around the UK instead of splitting their forces . Bomber command would be forced to keep flying the Stirling and Halifax as most other engines would be rec'd for Fighter Command along with most of other strategic materials the Luftwaffe had longer range capability with fw 190 and would be far more attuned to working against the home chain radar systems the Germans at this point would have production running at full steam unlike in 1940 the Americans would do what they could but it would be hard pressed to supply the UK. I think the UK would be large Malta stubbornly hanging on but with much less light at the end of the tunnel

[syscom3]

Just a thought, I have to think about this more today.......... dont forget this hypothetical battle will be fought while the Japanese are on the rampage through the Pacific.

Will the US throw even more scarce resources to Britain, or try to fight in both regions?