Gold-Clash

Udet · 05-15-2005, 09:55 PM

Krazi:

Thanks for posting those graphics.

The point is that when the discussed topic is aircraft, graphics are not as enlightening as guncamera footage is.

I wish i had my Luftwaffe guncamera shots available in the mpg format for immediate upload; those shots could certainly help you train your posture.

plan_D · 05-16-2005, 09:57 AM

Gun-cam footage doesn't show anything besides one aircraft being shot down by another. This could be due to pilot error or luck. It's not always the capability of the plane that brings it on the tail of it's opponent.

You can see aircraft from both sides being blown to pieces. All it shows is the devestation that can be caused to an aircraft.

evangilder · 05-16-2005, 10:04 AM

Agreed, plan_d. Gun camera footage shows one engagement. I have seen gun cam footage of allied planes getting chewed up and axis planes getting chewed up. It doesn't really prove much.

FLYBOYJ · 05-16-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

Gun-cam footage doesn't show anything besides one aircraft being shot down by another. This could be due to pilot error or luck. It's not always the capability of the plane that brings it on the tail of it's opponent.

You can see aircraft from both sides being blown to pieces. All it shows is the devestation that can be caused to an aircraft.

On the mark "D" - Unless gun camera footage could provide data like airspeed, altitude, aircraft attitude, "G" loading, etc. it is nothing more than a conformation of a kill or damage. That's why today's HUDs are so cool!

delcyros · 05-16-2005, 12:54 PM

Umm, what are the sources of these graphs?
As far as I see, they don´t fit to the generally accepted values (esspecially the K-4 graph is wrong). One reason could be that they are not recalculated to ISA standart atmospheres. This has to be checked first. The graph shows an error at 25.000 ft for the K-4 graph.
The K-4 made during tests at december at Rechlin 725 Km/h (450 mp/h), recalculated to standart atmossphere. I am convinced that this is not included here (typical for Oberammergau, a Me-262 speed tests resulted in 525 mp/h during winter, also not recalculated to standart atmossphere, later tests ar Rechlin with more involved planes confirmed the top speed of 535-540 mp/h).

FLYBOYJ · 05-16-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delcyros

Umm, what are the sources of these graphs?
As far as I see, they don´t fit to the generally accepted values (esspecially the K-4 graph is wrong). One reason could be that they are not recalculated to ISA standart atmospheres. This has to be checked first. The graph shows an error at 25.000 ft for the K-4 graph.
The K-4 made during tests at december at Rechlin 725 Km/h (450 mp/h), recalculated to standart atmossphere. I am convinced that this is not included here (typical for Oberammergau, a Me-262 speed tests resulted in 525 mp/h during winter, also not recalculated to standart atmossphere, later tests ar Rechlin with more involved planes confirmed the top speed of 535-540 mp/h).

Was the true airspeeds calculated at 59F sea level, 29.92 atmospheric pressure (1013 mb and 15C for my European friends)?

Schöpfel · 05-16-2005, 02:18 PM

Its my understanding that the 450 mph figure for a Bf 109 K4 is based on estimates using a non-standard thin-bladed propeller. Somewhere around 444 mph would be about right using the standard production 9.12159 propeller. All 109K charts that I've seen are based on calculations from Messerschmitt's Oberammergau facility. That's where the one above is from. Any one have datas for flight tests of Bf 109K-4s?

Udet · 05-16-2005, 06:02 PM

Well, I´ll be damned.

If you happen to watch a reasonable long film from the guncamera, i´d bet anything guncamera footage can provide with relevant data on the performance of the planes involved.

If you watch a mere 10 second long film commencing at the very right moment when the enemy plane is getting hit, i give you the point it told nothing beyond showing the end of a plane.

A different tale comes when you can have a 1 minute long -or even more- film from the same action.

If you can have a reasonably longer view of the enemy plane being pursued and watch it attempting evasive action -turning, diving, climbing- it is an entirely different case. Furthermore, even if after attempting evasive action the film goes on until showing you the pilot bringing his guns to bear and hit the mark you´ve nearly got the whole thing.

It is upon such film cases that i base my comments on the performance of aircraft.

Moving back on topic...i have these kind of films of gondola equipped Bf109s -either G-6s or G-10s, i could not tell it that accurate- being pursued or tailed. Some got pounded and went down, but -whatever the graphics and specifications might tell- several others found their way out.

I see everything but a "clumsy" plane. If you want to know clumsy -and impaired manouvering- go watch an IL-2 getting creamed.

Conclusion: if a gondola fitted G-10 could manage to evade the pursuers, i can confidently affirm a "standard" or "clean" G-10 could perform even better.

The BG109 G-10 is so beautiful.

DAVIDICUS · 05-16-2005, 06:10 PM

"The point is that when the discussed topic is aircraft, graphics are not as enlightening as guncamera footage is." Give it up Udet. You might as well be arguing your prowess with the TOTALLY HOT, EDUCATED and WELL MANNERED ladies.

Sal Monella · 05-16-2005, 07:13 PM

There isn't an emoticon for laughing so hard that you cry so this will have to do.

FLYBOYJ · 05-16-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udet

A different tale comes when you can have a 1 minute long -or even more- film from the same action.

If you can have a reasonably longer view of the enemy plane being pursued and watch it attempting evasive action -turning, diving, climbing- it is an entirely different case. Furthermore, even if after attempting evasive action the film goes on until showing you the pilot bringing his guns to bear and hit the mark you´ve nearly got the whole thing.

It is upon such film cases that i base my comments on the performance of aircraft.

It still doesn't give you speed, altitude, G loading, aircraft attitude, etc. or any relevant data on how the aircraft is actually maneuvering. I've filmed air-to-air maneuvering (and was filmed) and unless you have outside data to show what's really going on "looks are very deceiving."

Udet · 05-16-2005, 08:34 PM

It appears to me there is distortion in the communication process here.

A guncamera film of a tailed or pursued Bf 109 evading interception shows a tailed or pursued Bf 109 evading interception.

evangilder · 05-16-2005, 09:52 PM

Yes, it shows a Bf-109 being tailed, but does it really show the flight characteristics of the airplane? Not really, it shows the flying skills of the pilot. Hmm, long turning fight, one of 2 possibilities, good piloting skills of the plane being pursued, or bad gunnery skills of the pilot in the camera airplane. Which you choose depends on you.

lesofprimus · 05-17-2005, 12:03 AM

Now now fellas... I do see some validity in Udet thoughts... While the footage may not show the specifics, it does show that in given circumstances, a P-47 can out turn a Fw-190A and a P-38 cannot turn inside a Bf-109.......

Or visa versa.....

Some clips i have viewed show a P-51 make such a weak hearted attempt at evasion, u woulda thought the pilot was sleeping during aerial evasion techniques..... The guys Mustang was obliterated........

U know that he has the capabilities to make a tight ass turn and try to disengage, but he basically waggles his wings and slow turns to the left, and gets smoked........

FLYBOYJ · 05-17-2005, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Now now fellas... I do see some validity in Udet thoughts... While the footage may not show the specifics, it does show that in given circumstances, a P-47 can out turn a Fw-190A and a P-38 cannot turn inside a Bf-109.......

Or visa versa.....

Some clips i have viewed show a P-51 make such a weak hearted attempt at evasion, u woulda thought the pilot was sleeping during aerial evasion techniques..... The guys Mustang was obliterated........

U know that he has the capabilities to make a tight ass turn and try to disengage, but he basically waggles his wings and slow turns to the left, and gets smoked........

True blue Les, but with that in mind, I don't think a series of gun camera footage is really going to show you accurate aircraft performance comparisons, it may give you a good idea, or as you pointed out, if a pilot is asleep at the wheel, or in our case, the stick