Gold-Clash

lesofprimus · 05-22-2005, 06:35 PM

I just read the entire section on the Bf-109 Gustav in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of WWII, and nowhere does it mention the G-10 as being the best anything.....

However, the Dora 9 is regarded in all the publications i have as the Best Fighter the Luftwaffe ever produced in #'s.......

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If in a 'tough spot', the D-9 always had one VERY reliable escape maneuver, Split S's, as nothing could follow a D-9's Split S maneuver.

NOTHING..........

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And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

plan_D · 05-22-2005, 06:42 PM

Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

Erich · 05-22-2005, 06:58 PM

Les try Priens, Bf 109 series-variants. or the OOP MOnogram pubs on the 109G and the Dora fighters....

the G10 was the fastest of the G variants and in fact the fastest of the 109's. think about why the Anti Mossie units got rid of the Fw 190's and went over to the G-6/AS and G-10's. Speed at high altitude, and I am not talking about low to medium Soren, this is the reason why I gave the stats on the units flying the Dora and the G-10. principly it was thus in 1945. any unit that had the Fw 190A-8 and A-9 got dibs on the Dora. any unit that still had G-14/AS on hand at least 3/4's strength received the G-10 and later the K-4 in some quantities which were not many. this was usually at the gruppe strength. Here are a couple of examples: JG 4 had G-10's and then Doras in the Geschwader stab along with Fw 190A-9's in the stabstaffel and in II./JG 4 a long standing SturmFw gruppe. it consisted of A-9's.

JG 1 though had both G-10/G-14's as well as Fw 190A-8/A-9's and then a sprinkling of the horrid He 162's in the I./gruppe

JG 3 had Fw 190A-9's in the old sturmgruppe IV. the I, II, and the III. gruppen had G-10 and G-14/AS, but ah wait two staffeln in the spring of 1945 in the old SturmFw IV. gruppe were equipped with the Dora and friend and ace Oskar Romm scored some victories with his agasint Soviet fighters at mid altitude.

JG 51 along with it's mix of 109G's had Fw 190A-9's and some Doras fighting off soviet fighter bombers, and fighters on the Ost front.

point is that everyone has a consensus and the Dora and G-10 never did fulfill it's promise of being the all out save the homeland fighter. there were just too much Allied/Soviet a/c to contend with. Suppose we could rack our brains silly trying to interview every living veteran that flew one or the other to get their personal opinion and we will never be satisfied. Both a/c flew against P-51 types with some success but also overall a huge failure to keep the skies clean over Germany

crapo I am rambling........

lesofprimus · 05-22-2005, 07:22 PM

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Both a/c flew against P-51 types with some success but also overall a huge failure to keep the skies clean over Germany

100% Agreed erich..... Sheer #'s will usually overcome performance...
For the attack on Mossies, i would also want the fastest thing flying under my ass...... But if im gonna mix it up with Spits and Stangs from 18-30K, i wanna be in the Dora......

Too bad Tank had such problems getting the engine he wanted for his dream....... It took 2 years from prototype flight to actual service.......

Soren · 05-22-2005, 08:03 PM

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I just read the entire section on the Bf-109 Gustav in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of WWII, and nowhere does it mention the G-10 as being the best anything.....

There is a reason for that though. The 109 has been very 'miss-presented' by western writers/historians, and has never gotten the full credit it deserves. The Bf-109 was in truth one of the best fighters of WW2, even to the very end.

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If in a 'tough spot', the D-9 always had one VERY reliable escape maneuver, Split S's, as nothing could follow a D-9's Split S maneuver.

NOTHING..........

No other fighter, no.

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And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

Any altitude. (Sufficient altitude is needed though, for keeping the speed up)

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Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

In a Split S maneuver it does though.

lesofprimus · 05-22-2005, 08:11 PM

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The 109 has been very 'miss-presented' by western writers/historians

In certain publications, yes... But in alot of the stuff I have and have read, the -109 is claimed as one of the most valuable items of WWII.... I dont think ive really seen it mis-represented...

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The Bf-109 was in truth one of the best fighters of WW2, even to the very end.

I agree 100%....

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And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

Any altitude. (Sufficient altitude is needed though, for keeping the speed up)

I think the -152H was a match for the Dora in conditions over 28k........

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Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

In a Split S maneuver it does though.

100% agreed........

plan_D · 05-22-2005, 08:11 PM

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

lesofprimus · 05-22-2005, 08:12 PM

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I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

I agree except in a Split S combat situation....

Soren · 05-22-2005, 08:34 PM

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Originally Posted by plan_D

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

I was talking while in Split S maneuvers, a reverse Cuban maneuver would just do aswell. Bottom line is, the D-9 should stay above 400mph, and not get below 380mph. Above 400mph the D-9 is THE hottest fighter of WW2.

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But in alot of the stuff I have and have read, the -109 is claimed as one of the most valuable items of WWII.... I dont think ive really seen it mis-represented...

Most BoB sites and most Spit sites for that matter represent it as virtually "Garbage", as do some western books about it. There are some good books about it out there though, but its few at the moment as its mostly newly published books.

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I think the -152H was a match for the Dora in conditions over 28k.....

The TA-152H was better than the D-9 above 28k, no doubt about it. But the TA-152 wouldnt follow a D-9's Split S or Reversed Cuban maneuvers, it would outturn and outdive the D-9 though, 'and' outrun it.

lesofprimus · 05-22-2005, 08:44 PM

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Most BoB sites and most Spit sites for that matter represent it as virtually "Garbage",

Which is why i consider myself smarter than the average meatball, and always look at both "Sides" of the coin...

plan_D · 05-22-2005, 09:45 PM

All I'm saying is; it's all well and good saying the D-9 was the best over 400 mph but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

We could bring this back to your Zero Vs. Spitfire argument that eventually the fight would slow down. So, a Spitfire and Zero dogfight would slow down but a D-9 and Spitfire fight wouldn't? Honest question.

lesofprimus · 05-23-2005, 05:56 AM

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but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

I will agree to an extent... Alot of times it wont stay over 400 mph cause the poor, unlucky bastard flying the LaGG-3 got blasted outta the sky....

the lancaster kicks ass · 05-23-2005, 10:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Soren

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Originally Posted by plan_D

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

I was talking while in Split S maneuvers, a reverse Cuban maneuver would just do aswell. Bottom line is, the D-9 should stay above 400mph, and not get below 380mph. Above 400mph the D-9 is THE hottest fighter of WW2.

so you're suggesting that for the entire dogfight the D-9 simply does split Ss or reverse cubans?? and that's gonna get the spit shot down?? eventually the D-9'll have to do something else, and eventually the speed'll come down, and they wouldn't stay at full speed for long anyway, i can think or more appealing situations than being out of fuel or having a overheated engine..........

Soren · 05-23-2005, 04:08 PM

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All I'm saying is; it's all well and good saying the D-9 was the best over 400 mph but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

A good pilot will, and a regular would atleast keep it above 380mph. And if the Spit ever gets on the D-9's tail, it will just do a Split S or Cuban/Reverse-Cuban maneuver and its off its tail with garantee ! And if it combines these three maneuvers, it will be on the Spits tail in a very short space of time.

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We could bring this back to your Zero Vs. Spitfire argument that eventually the fight would slow down. So, a Spitfire and Zero dogfight would slow down but a D-9 and Spitfire fight wouldn't? Honest question.

That was if the Spit decided to TURN WITH the Zero.

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so you're suggesting that for the entire dogfight the D-9 simply does split Ss or reverse cubans?? and that's gonna get the spit shot down?? eventually the D-9'll have to do something else, and eventually the speed'll come down, and they wouldn't stay at full speed for long anyway, i can think or more appealing situations than being out of fuel or having a overheated engine..........

Yes the D-9 would eventually have to do another maneuver, and it will do so when its at its most maneuverable speed.

Lets say the Spit gets on the D-9's tail, the D-9 sees the Spit and so makes a Split S, the Spit tries to follow the D-9's extreem rolls in this maneuver but cant keep up (meanwhile the speed continues to increase QUICKLY). As the Spit can't follow the D-9's wild maneuvers it loses sight of the D-9, wich now is at its most maneuverable stage, and has taken advantage of this. So now while the Spit desperately tries to recover from the dive, the D-9 makes one Cuban and one Reverse Cuban maneuver, and is now on the Spits tail.

Now I don't have to tell you what the spit will do with the D-9 on its tail now do I ?

Its basically a draw.

plan_D · 05-23-2005, 05:32 PM

Dogfights took place more often below 400 mph than they did above.

Sure, they'll be those pilots who will be able to keep their plane above 400 mph but the majority won't. Also, keeping your engine at full power you're going to start over-heating, as lanc said.

The Spitfire pilot doesn't have to follow. The speed will drop, the D-9 isn't going to be able to hold up all day. Especially if he's repeating the same move time and time again, the Spitfire pilot will learn and adjust accordingly.