Hardest plane to take down in WW2?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

But for ground attack a/c it has to be the Il-2, or maby the Il-10 (basicly the same in most ways, but with much higher performance) it truely was a concrete aircraft.

But how do we (or anybody) truly have a basis to either judge or compare against equally legendary airframes?

The primary reason I try to stay out of deep debate on this type subject is that I simply don't know how one could make a comparison unless perhaps you were able to fly equal numbers of aircraft to be compared - say four each IL-2, Fw 190, P-47 and F6F on the same mission against heavily defended targets for perhaps 100 missions - and keep the data as accurately as possible regarding severity of battle damage on the survivors, for example,..

[lesofprimus]

The only way I can determine, roughly, which was the toughest is to look at pilot comments/recollections.... As Bill said, without any concrete data, the rest is all hearsay and bullsh!t....

That being said, just about every German fighter pilot who engaged Allied Bomber streams thought the -17 was the toughest to pop....

[Crumpp]

The primary reason I try to stay out of deep debate on this type subject is that I simply don't know how one could make a comparison unless perhaps you were able to fly equal numbers of aircraft to be compared - say four each IL-2, Fw 190, P-47 and F6F on the same mission against heavily defended targets for perhaps 100 missions - and keep the data as accurately as possible regarding severity of battle damage on the survivors, for example,..

Exactly. Pictures can be found and incidences recalled of all of these aircraft returning to base after catastrophic damage.

What does it mean? The pilot got very lucky.

All the best,

Crumpp

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

The only way I can determine, roughly, which was the toughest is to look at pilot comments/recollections.... As Bill said, without any concrete data, the rest is all hearsay and bullsh!t....

That being said, just about every German fighter pilot who engaged Allied Bomber streams thought the -17 was the toughest to pop....

Every one I talked to expressed the same opinion about the B-17. I can't remeber the author of the famous quote "To attack a formation of B-17s is to watch one's life pass before your eyes - holding your breath as you go."

Was it Eder who was shot down 9 times attacking them?

[lesofprimus]

Yea it was Eder, and Im sure everytime he attacked one, that thought went through his head....

[ThunderThud]

I think even Luftwaffe Pilots would Respectfully say it was the P-47

[kool kitty89]

Compared to the P-47, the Il-2 was alot easier to hit too, slow and low agility (even by jug standards)

Another thing is that even without a turbo it still had an integral single-stage supercharger for low-alt use, so atleast it would have some boost preassure. So it wouldn't be normaly aspirated, though altitude performance would be as bad as the P-40 or P-39...
And the prototypes used fabric control surfaces, but balloning problems made them switch to dural. The tips of the alerons were made progressively blunter as the speed of the 'bolt increased, to deal with compressibillity problems.

Despite some of the volnerabillities of the P-38 it was able to get home with a surprisig amount of damage, albeit it couldn't obsorb as much damage and usualy ended up with loss of an engine and chunks of the airframe, usualy irreparable. In one instance in the PTO I remember reading about a pilot who had gotten in a dogfight (Zeros IIRC) and sored at least one kill and then (iirc) debris from a kill impacted on the tail of the a/c, completely tearing off a boom! He lost the turbo for the engine and lost control, but astonishingly he managed to regain control (before he'd even realized fully what had happened) and landed the plane safely at base, though the P-38 was totaled and was scrapped.

[lesofprimus]

Remember the Egon Mayer vs Robert Johnson story??? The P-47 is a rugged bitch...

YouTube - Dogfights: " Thunderbolt " 1/5
YouTube - Dogfights: " Thunderbolt " 2/5

[Elvis]

Drgndog,

I see what you're saying and it is HIGHLY valid, but maybe you're looking at this too closely?
Why couldn't one simply count the total number of sortie losses against total production numbers for any airplane and use the percentage to answer the question?
...and by "sortie losses" I mean a plane is no longer usable, other than as a source for parts.




Elvis

[lesofprimus]

Because there are too many variables when u look at it that way Elvis.... Total sortie losses could be from anything, mishap/malfunction/internment....

[AL Schlageter]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Remember the Egon Mayer vs Robert Johnson story??? The P-47 is a rugged bitch...

Doubtful it was Johnson's P-47 that was attacked by Egon Meyer. The LW pilot was either Lt. Waldemar Radener or Fw. Wilhelm Mayer.

Not that rugged, for no mention of the 5 P-47s lost during this combat.

[lesofprimus]

Doubtful??? Evidence to back that up Al???

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Drgndog,

I see what you're saying and it is HIGHLY valid, but maybe you're looking at this too closely?
Why couldn't one simply count the total number of sortie losses against total production numbers for any airplane and use the percentage to answer the question?
...and by "sortie losses" I mean a plane is no longer usable, other than as a source for parts.

Elvis

Elvis - here are the factors that we might want to consider..

Would you look at the total number of sorties flown by B-17's in ETO versus the number of sorties of a C-47 and ratio out the losses... and maybe conclude that the C-47 was tougher than the B-17? So, the mission is an important factor.

Would you look at the number of tactical ground support missions flown by 9th AF and compare the number of missions by 8th AF P-51s against enemy airfields and conclude that one was tougher than the other based on loss to sortie ratios?

You might, but one factor here is not just the simple fact that ALL airfields were heavily defended but you then ask how many passes were made in which to give the gunners another shot - contrasted with shoot as you go but don't come back for a typical low level sortie by P-47s. So, threat environment and tactics applied are added to mission.

You might ask yourself if the airfields and island defenses in the PTO was as formidable as ETO if you wish to compare F6F to say, Jug or P-38.

Operational losses such as engine failures and crashes on take off - might be higher in PTO than ETO because of hot days and full loads, rather than standard or better days for lift as would be encountered during cool or very cold days. Icing in Europe, T-Storms in Pacific

Instrument flying conditions over ETO versus Africa? or Alaska?

These are environmental factors that could skew the results but lesser impotance I think..

Even in my somewhat whimsical example of building every attack unit mission with four each F4U, F6F and P-47 - you should rotate lead and trail on every mission - the first guy across a heavily defended target usually survived better than the trail flight.

[marshall]

Read thru almost whole topic and I have question about a "fact" that was metioned here few times, does anyone have any proof that USAAF stated that F4U was thougher than P-47 after some kind of post-war test?

[AL Schlageter]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Doubtful??? Evidence to back that up Al???

Mayer was based in Brittany with III./JG2. Any claims that day were made by JG,2 by I and II Gruppes and from JG26.

The German records indicate that the following pilots made claims for P-47s over Western Europe on this date:

26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P-47 N. Neufchâtel:
8.000 m. 18.52

26.06.43 Ofw. Adolf Glunz 4./JG 26 P-47 N. Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.54

26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P-47 Neufchâtel: 7.000 m. 18.55

26.06.43 Fw. Günther Scholz 5./JG 26 P-47 20 km. N. Neufchâtel: 2.500
m. 19.00

26.06.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 5./JG 2 P-47 QC 2: 5.550 m. [15 km. N.W.
Cayeux] 19.03

26.06.43 Hptm. Wilhelm-F. Galland Stab II./JG 26 P-47 10 km. N.W.
Dieppe: 7-8.000 m. 19.04

26.06.43 Ltn. Waldemar Radener 4./JG 26 P-47 10-12 km. N.N.W. Le
Tréport: 400 m. 19.04

26.06.43 Fw. Peter Crump 5./JG 26 P-47 15-20 km. N.W. Somme Estuary:
300 m. 19.10

26.06.43 Ltn. Heinz Hoppe 4./JG 26 P-47 10 km. N.W. Somme Estuary:
100-0 m. 19.10.

According to the description of the area where the battle was fought, the LW pilot could be Lt. Waldemar Radener of II./JG26. Note also the altitude the battle was fought.

Fw. Wilhelm Mayer had a combat with a P-47 that day but made no claim.