Was Hartmann a liar?

[me262]

[quote]
The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.
[/quote
the problem with the american system it that they alowed share victories and count the one in the ground as a kill, in strafing raids

[Soren]

Originally Posted by the lacaster kicks ass

i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........

This has nothing to do with attitude, its just fact.

The U.S. played a HUGE part in defeating the Nazi's !

The British, Canadian, french etc etc... troops all fought equally well and with just as much determination as the U.S. troops, but there's only so much one relatively small country can do.

Without the U.S. involvment there would be no D-day, no landing in Italy, no huge scale bombing of German industry = German victory in Russia.

And I dont think I need to tell you what would happen if Russia was defeated, now do I......... Britain would fall within the next year ! (If not sooner)

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by me262

there is the problem: do you think the goverment is going to allow us to search in the secrets file they have, i.e. the british gov have some files regarding the hunt of the bismarck and they will be declasified in 20 to 30 years more , why ? are they hiding something they do not want us to know?
also how we civilians can check that?
even here with the freedom of speach and search, we are limited to the info we can gatter

if i can remember well, it was not only the wingman to support the claim also it needed to find the wreck site to confirm me kill

Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.

I'm not speak in russian, but there is hundred of publications about WW2, many of it in Internet.

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

That's a myth, Stalin purged many people without many evidence using false acusations, why do you believe that with hartmann was true? Do you have any docummented information about that reward?. It's a myth made for the western point of view about war.

Anyway, that article talks about 80 kills, thats is good enough.

And Rudel claimed 500 tanks, of course that's not an exageration

[Nonskimmer]

Soren has an excellent point here. The US did a tremendous part in WWII, and without their involvement victory for the Commonwealth and for the Soviet Union would have been exceedingly difficult at best. In fact, the war in the west would have certainly raged on for much longer than it did. There's no question.
Don't forget, the United States helped with materiel and supplies long before they began sending troops and planes too. Without them, victory would have been very much in doubt. It's a fact.

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by me262

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

Oh, so, frenchman is = to idiot?, nice argument.

But D Khazanov is not french, is one of the best East Front historian, he wrote many books, some of them with Yef Gordon and it have access to german and soviet ww2 files.

USA helped a lot to the European Freedom, but remember that 70% of german loses were in the Eastern Front, I repeat, 70% of all the german WW2 losses. Only in Kursk, they lost near 1 million soldier, only 1 battle.

And please, do not insult nations

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by Soren

Agreed

And why then did they charge him of shooting down more than 300 Soviet a/c ?

Hartmann was NEVER a liar ! And I would without doubt even dare to say that a whole 95% of his confirmed kills are 'actual' kills.

---------------------------

And for Shadar,

Don't ever believe these Soviet dream-stories that try to degrade German scores, as they are all dirty lies !

The German confirmation system was the most strict and most accurate of WW2 ! On the other hand the Russian confirmation system was as inaccurate as almost can be, and relied heavily on unreliable partisans !

The Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub doubtedly got even half of his kills

For example: Some soviet aces with scores from 30-40 kills, didnt even get 10 kills in reality ! All this has been established by looking in German loss-records, which 'again' are the most accurate of WW2.

Btw I actually remember Charles presenting a site commenting this Russian "fantasy-writer"=Khazanov: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Stu...annclaims.html

Now who's the liar ?

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

------------------------------

As sidenote: The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.

Sure?

Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
OKL shoot down only 30% of their claims
Who's the liar?.

Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative.
But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?

[Shadar_Logoth]

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

Explain me how to be so accurate behind the enemy lines, when the russian were in offensive.

Many myths here, but few facts. Many years of "cold war" I see.

[me262]

i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by Soren

This has nothing to do with attitude, its just fact.

The U.S. played a HUGE part in defeating the Nazi's !

The British, Canadian, french etc etc... troops all fought equally well and with just as much determination as the U.S. troops, but there's only so much one relatively small country can do.

Without the U.S. involvment there would be no D-day, no landing in Italy, no huge scale bombing of German industry = German victory in Russia.

And I dont think I need to tell you what would happen if Russia was defeated, now do I......... Britain would fall within the next year ! (If not sooner)

The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT. I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive.

Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.

Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by me262

i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack

Yes, a landing that never happened until 1944, when Germany was pretty near to be defeated...

All the equipment from the Lean and Leasing was about 4% used by soviets.

[mosquitoman]

The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things

[CharlesBronson]

Originally Posted by me262

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

Incorrect

Actually it was wrote by the russian "historian" Dimitri Kazhanov, wich is not an idiot , but a clever guy, wich handles and modificate the truth with maquiavelic effect.

I dont blame it, must be hard that a single german pilot blasted away so many fellow countryman.

Aniway, he failed in his purpose of make Hartmann a mediocre pilot simply because he wasnt.

[Shadar_Logoth]

look at this
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...g_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...g_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...g_World_War_II

[Shadar_Logoth]

Or look at this and compare:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Normandy
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Kursk
only 2 examples.