Was Hartmann a liar?

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by CharlesBronson

Incorrect

Actually it was wrote by the russian "historian" Dimitri Kazhanov, wich is not an idiot , but a clever guy, wich handles and modificate the truth with maquiavelic effect.

I dont blame it, must be hard that a single german pilot blasted away so many fellow countryman.

Aniway, he failed in his purpose of make Hartmann a mediocre pilot simply because he wasnt.

He did not say that Hartmann was a poor pilot, he says that is one of the best WW2 pilots, but overclaimed the kills. That's common in all the WW2, Why not Hartmann?. Yes, because Germans did not used propaganda, of course Nazis did not use propaganda against those "inferior" eslaves.


I see that all this issue is a "faith" question.

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things

I agree, war was won by ALLIES.

[Udet]

*YAWN*

[mosquitoman]

So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it

Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar, I believe that he overclaimed his air kills.
But not all the Allies deserves equal praise, in Pacific War USA had 95% effort, in European War URSS had 70% effort (german loses in east front). Allies won the war, but not with the same numbers and importance.

But the discussion was about Hartmann, so, if all of you say that is not a liar, could you show me any evidence, file, investigation about his 352 kills?.
I'm not a religious guy, so, I have not faith.

When a country loses a plane ina war, it's registered, so, it's very easy to check german claims vs soviet loses and have an aproximation of the real numbers. And Im not talking about propaganda (nazi or soviet), I'm talking about LW files and VVs files, both accesible to the historians and investigators, like Korean War files.

Regards

[mosquitoman]

I'm not going to argue because I don't know where to get all that data, because of that I'm taking the middle ground. I'm not saying he overclaimed on purpose but in the heat of battle a plane seen streaming glycol could have been classed as a kill but actually make it back to a friendly airfield and land

[Soren]

Sure?

Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
OKL shoot down only 30% of their claims
Who's the liar?.

You are, cause that right there is a lie

Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative.
But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?

I've read it, and its pure bull**** (Excuse me).

But you obviously didnt read the article I presented you, wich proves just how big a liar Khazanov is, and how worthless his article on this subject is !

Here, I present you it again, now read it very carefully: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Stu...annclaims.html

See... He cant even get the numbers right !

Originally Posted by Shadar_Logoth

Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.

Russian loss records are not open to the public, period. And even if they were they werent worth anything, as the Russians didnt bother writing losses up in any detailed way, wich is why their loss archives are notoriously inaccurate.

The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT.

The Russians no doubt lost more men than any other country in the war, meaning it cost them the most in men and material as a single country, but, the combined casualties of the W-Allies and damage inflicted on Germany by them, more than makes up for that.

I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive.

Let me put it like this: That data is "WRONG", and your also forgetting so many things i don't even bother mentioning them as it would take ages.

Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.

Again your totally forgetting the German point of view ! If the Germans were only fighting the Soviets wich only had Britain as help, the Soviets wouldn't stand a chance !

Think about it, if the U.S. werent involved the Germans were free of daily mass bombing raids, and two BIG fronts ! More than enough to secure a sure victory in the east without doubt !

Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?

7 million soldiers !!! You really dont know your numbers !

Here's the facts:

During WW2 German casualties were: 3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front) / 2.44 million Civilian dead. Total= 5.29 million. (Even the Total number isnt even close to your highly exaggerated number !)

Russian casualties: 12-13 million Soldiers dead. / 17 million civilian dead. Total= 29-30 million.

W-Allied casualties: 1.67 million Soldiers dead. / 6.44 milllion civilian dead. Total= 7.11 million.

Now may I ask, where did you get those outrages loss figures of yours ?

In any case you might as well stop it Shadar, cause your so horribly wrong about this subject !

---------------------------------------------

Let me remind you of some facts, now you may ignore them (I dont care), but now I showed you them and there's no disputing them now:

During WW2 the Germans had the most accurate and most strict confirmation system in the world.

The Russians had a confirmation system which was one of the very worst in the world, being only equaled by the Japanese system !

Now think about this.

[reddragon]

I know this is off topic but it looks to me like the Russians overran German positions in part by simply using massed numbers of troops. While the Germans put a great deal of emphasis on the quality of their weapons, the Russians were able to churn out massive numbers of weapons with less emphasis on quality, since they didn't seem to care if the troops came back or not. I've seen stories of how the Russians would take men who had already been put behind bars and force them to interlock their arms and walk across minefields.

My father saw the same thing in Korea. The Chinese would attack in huge numbers and it didn't matter how superior our weapons were, the men would run out of ammunition or become exhausted and the Chinese would still come. When you're willing to sacrifice large numbers of troops, any position can at some point be overrun. That's simply what the Russians did because they simply didn't care.

They did make some fine weapons, like the T-34, but they still had no concern for the individual soldier. The officers had a choice, win or face execution themselves.

I saw an interview with a Russian woman who killed a German general (can't remember either name, sorry) and she told about how she was to be awarded a medal and while in Moscow to receive it was warned that they were planning on executing her after she got it so she went into hiding. If you're willing to execute those you parade as heros, that doesn't say much for all the others who are unknown to the public.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Shadar_Logoth

Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar,

Sorry, but you don't have even a single shred of evidence that he was

And neither has anyone else !

[Erich]

go do some frickin research SL. There is a book on JG 52 already written as well as some exhaustive research already in print by German author Bernd Barbas. Funny how many say Erich H. is full of crap and have no basis for their claiming so. JG 52 was the top scoring Jagdgeschwader with over 11,000 kills. Hartmanns wingman was also an Ritterkreuz winner with over 110 kills to his credit. Guess he's full of crap as well..........in fact all the Luftwaffe eh ?

JG 51 with over 9000 kills'
JG 54 with over 9500 kills'.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 with over 450 alone ! yes they are all liar's...............

geez I could state further but why, go to Tony Woods listing whcih is directly from Freiburg and find Eastern front victories from 1941 till December 1944, you can get almost all of his kills plus the area of engagement included.....

[lesofprimus]

***Yawn....... Good info Soren......

AS near as i can make out from documentation, over 250 of Hartmans claims were verified by film......

[Udet]

Guys:

Sorry to tell you this, but why on earth are you bothering following the game of this individual?

It would be better if you leave him alone making the thread all by himself trying to "convince" no one but himself Hartmann was a liar. Let him shout in the desert alone.


By just reading some of his ruddy ridiculous hogwash you can learn either how ignorant or brainwashed -or both- this individual is. So the Wehrmacht lost "1 million" men at Kursk? No ****! That is about the entire German OB for such battle, so this enlightened poser is telling something like no German soldier survived Kursk. I mean, making comments and clarifications to such comments is pointless.

You better retreat to the pit you came from before you receive some rough treatment here.

You are so full of **** the stench is unbearable here. Something is rotten around here and right there wherever you are located.

If there is an opean liar here it would be this individual. So russian files are "open to the public"? So you are convinced present day "democratic" Russia has opened their files to the "public". Wow! A perfect exercise of transparency exercised by the neo democratic Moscow bureaucracy. Who the hell do you work for? Who pays you? How much did you got paid to go out and make a fool out of yourself?

As I said before, i am just way too familiar with these post bolshevik keepers of the truth whose comments have common patterns; the following two are some of them and this rings the bell of the soviet propaganda:

(i) Lend Lease was 4 percent of soviet production.

But of course; well, "only 4 percent"...such a tiny useless help. "With or with out you". So LL had no effect. 4 percent? Well, perhaps the USA and Britain, in an act of good will and sincere friendship, decided to sent small gifts to the communists, the reason? Well, just for the **** of it. Or perhaps it was a case of very bizarre charity for the soviets did not need it to fight Germany and perhaps the allied fridge was so full they decided to give some of their stuff away.


(ii) The idea of highly accurate and customized soviet records of their own losses of men kept during the war is implied in their comments.

Trying to make it appear work for researchers "couldn´t be easier". Want to know if any pilot -soviet or foe alike- shot down what, when and where? Well, all you have to do is consult our "files" -gladly open for the public- and you will have the answer!

Soren brought up a precious point: the partisans involved in the process of confirming soviet victories!!!! I will be damned. The ultimate guaranty of accuracy. That is as naive as it gets. It would have been better for them soviets to hide that part of their process and to keep it to themselves.


Do not research that much for you might be surprised Hartmann not only shot down 352 enemy planes but perhaps a few more.

JG 52...read some names: Rall, Batz, Graf, Barkhorn, Grislawski, Trenkel, Wolfrum, Dutmann, Steinhoff, Hartmann...names for the history of military of aviation who finished the war...the VVS never came nowhere near in dealing with JG 52 did you know?

Likewise, go and make a "free" consult of soviet files "gladly open" to the public and you might find the bulk of the soviet aces never shot down what their official scores say. Understand? Inflated records for most of them.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

To be honest Soren has a point.

Yeah, he does.

It's pretty simple that France had her arse saved by the U.S., since the early Allies failed to hold her in 1939.

[delcyros]

It should be also mentioned that France did in some points participated in the VVS campaigns by their Normandi-Njiemen squadron. This could explain...
The russian government does not allow investigation of their VVS losses for the second world war, it plays a major role for them.
I believe that Hartmanns victories are to a very, very high degree correct. Just keep soviet anti Hartmann measures in mind: He was accused in the destruction of 346 soviet airplanes and found guilty in this. This can be counted as an official soviet statement.
However, the VVS is often seen very unbalanced. Actually it flew twice as many combat sorties as the opposing Luftwaffe on the eastern front and all in all an equally number of combat sorties of both, UK and US airforces. It also has an equally number of losses (like RAF+USAAF). The efforts of the Luftwaffe are impressive because they did less combat sorties but more damage to them. However, the surviving of the SU in 1941-43 was highly important for the allies and the help of the allies (particularly in this timeframe) was key factor in surviving of the SU. LL doesn´t include weapons only, keep in mind that ~65% of the granary in 1942 came via Land lease...

[plan_D]

I have just two points here.

The 'early' Allies didn't hold France in 1940 but Britain didn't have to stick her neck out to try and help France. France had the second biggest army in Europe, second to the Soviet Union, she should have been able to defend herself!

The other point, in Stalingrad 6th Armee was lost. With it was lost 300,000 men captured or dead. The Soviet Union made a huge deal about that and so do many historians to this day.
Who knows what happened in Tripoli? In case you didn't know, the British 8th and 1st Army, with the US 7th Army captured 250,000 German troops. Along with the 8th Army costing the German forces 100,000 before U.S involvement. As well as the over 200,000 Italian troops.

The Italians might not have been the greatest army in the world but an enemy soldier with a gun is still a threat. We were fighting the AXIS not Germany. The Allies captured more Axis troops in Africa than the Soviets did in Stalingrad but Stalingrad gets ALL the praise and Africa none...it pisses me off.

Anywho, simple answer to the thread starting question, no.