hartmanns victories

Lucky13 · 04-05-2008, 10:44 PM

Some of the above members are MIA though....

lesofprimus · 04-06-2008, 08:11 AM

And many of Hartmanns victories are subject.... Too many go up alone and come home saying u knocked down 4 Russians... Not being able to have confirmation on ur victories discredits some of them in my eyes...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 04-06-2008, 09:25 AM

Even if you take out some of his claims he would still be the leading ace with the legit ones.

He was not the best but he does go down as the greatest in my book for that fact.

bf109 Emil · 04-09-2008, 06:33 AM

Hartmanns victories where all on the Russian front with a 109...before he became the leading ace in WW2, was he posted somewhere to hone his flying skills...ie conflict started in sept of '39, and russia on june 22 1941...I find it hard to believe he never faced a fighter pryor to Soviet/germany agression

drgondog · 04-09-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bf109 Emil

Hartmanns victories where all on the Russian front with a 109...before he became the leading ace in WW2, was he posted somewhere to hone his flying skills...ie conflict started in sept of '39, and russia on june 22 1941...I find it hard to believe he never faced a fighter pryor to Soviet/germany agression

Have you ever read his biographies? He never saw combat until August 1942, first score in November and shot down by his victim and took a fairly long time to get his first 11 awards.

He was also awarded seven Mustangs in the Rumania/Czechoslovakia area although recent 'matching' has several of his first five claims returning so hard to tell for sure.

Unquestionably a great fighter pilot..

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 04-09-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bf109 Emil

Hartmanns victories where all on the Russian front with a 109...before he became the leading ace in WW2, was he posted somewhere to hone his flying skills...ie conflict started in sept of '39, and russia on june 22 1941...I find it hard to believe he never faced a fighter pryor to Soviet/germany agression

No his first engagments were on the East Front.

He did not join the Luftwaffe until 1940 when he 19 years old and did not obtain his pilots license until August of 1941. From 14 October 1941 to February 1942 he attended Jagdfliegerschule-Vorschule 2 at Lachen-Speyerdorf. He attended Jagdfliegerschule 2 at Zerbst from February 1942 to July 1942 before being posted to Ergänzungruppe Ost at Gleiwitz for operational training, which he completed in October 1942.

His first operation unit was 7./JG 52 on the Eastern Front on 10 Oct. 1942, and he did not achieve his first victory until 5 Nov. 1942 by downling an Il-2.

In 1945 he did shoot down some P-51 (I believe it was an American one) as the West and East Fronts drew closer and closer.

He soon thereafter surrendured his unit to an American Armoured Unit who handed him over to the Russians.

Check out this site on Erich Hartmann:

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann

Hunter368 · 04-09-2008, 01:50 PM

I have it some place at home, where the Russians themselves were able to confirm I think it was about 280 of his kills.

So a great number of his kills were real and confirmed, as per the Russians themselves.

When the enemy confirms a high percentage of your kills........thats a good sign of his accuracy when making claims.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 04-09-2008, 02:32 PM

I do believe he was well over 300. Unfortunatly his log book and everything have gone missing in Russia.

Hunter368 · 04-09-2008, 02:54 PM

True.

My main point was that Erich's claims were very close to being accurate. More then accurate as one could possibly expect under trying conditions. Many Westerns wanted to discount Erich's (any many German Aces) claims as not possible, but they were very real.

As per the Russians themselves, Erich was the real deal. No wild over claiming by him.

SoD Stitch · 04-09-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

True.

My main point was that Erich's claims were very close to being accurate. More then accurate as one could possibly expect under trying conditions. Many Westerns wanted to discount Erich's (any many German Aces) claims as not possible, but they were very real.

Yes, it was very hard for Allied aces to believe the seemingly wild claims of German pilots who had tallies in the hundreds, as opposed to most of the Allied aces who could count their victories on one or two hands. However, I believe the incredible German totals were a result of their pilot rotation system or, rather, lack thereof. Normally, an Allied pilot would be rotated home after a certain number of missions (don't remember the number, I think it was either 50 or 100); the Germans had no such luxury. German pilots had to fly until they were either killed, captured or incapacitated. So, of course, their totals would be high in comparison to Allied pilots when they're flying hundreds of missions, instead of a few dozen, as the Allied pilots did (Hartmann himself flew a total of 1,404 missions).

Hunter368 · 04-09-2008, 05:25 PM

100% agree Sod,

German pilots were not supermen compared to other pilots. They were very good, some of the things they did or were asked to do.....Allied pilots never had to do.

As a result many great pilots from Germany were killed during war, when their Allied counter parts were back relaxing safely behind lines (after they served their required missions were done). As you said German pilots did not have that luxary, they served until they died or were injured badly and could not fly (or the war ended).

Denniss · 04-09-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I do believe he was well over 300. Unfortunatly his log book and everything have gone missing in Russia.

No, lost to the americans he surrendered to in 1945. The first log book was safe at home, it contained his victories to about number 150 (have the book about him not on hand to verify).

Ramirezzz · 04-10-2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

I have it some place at home, where the Russians themselves were able to confirm I think it was about 280 of his kills.

So a great number of his kills were real and confirmed, as per the Russians themselves.

When the enemy confirms a high percentage of your kills........thats a good sign of his accuracy when making claims.

actually, slightly more than a third of his victories contained in the first part of his log book are confirmed by russian sources so far.

Hunter368 · 04-10-2008, 10:51 AM

My sources quote it at close to 280 kills confirmed by the Russians themselves.

I will look for it and see if I can dig it up for you.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 04-10-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denniss

No, lost to the americans he surrendered to in 1945. The first log book was safe at home, it contained his victories to about number 150 (have the book about him not on hand to verify).

Ah I thought it was lost in Russia. I knew he surrendured to the Americans who handed him over to the Russians.