 | hartmanns victories| Aviation Discuss hartmanns victories in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet
Ah I thought it was lost in Russia. I knew he surrendured to the Americans who ... |
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04-10-2008, 02:32 PM
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#31 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet  Ah I thought it was lost in Russia. I knew he surrendured to the Americans who handed him over to the Russians. | You may be half right; it was his second log book, with victories 150-352, that went missing, IIRC.
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04-10-2008, 03:07 PM
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#32 | | Senior Member
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Country:  | That is correct, lost and never found.
Very sad.
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04-10-2008, 03:42 PM
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#33 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
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Country:  | Exactly and I thought it was lost in Russia. I could be wrong though.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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04-10-2008, 07:49 PM
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#34 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Edinburgh
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Country:  | For anyone who is interested - here is a rather lengthy debate over at the 'Ubizoo', from a while ago, regarding Hartmann's 'claims', official records, the "missing logbook" etc. IMO it was a very interesting discussion. However it also turned into a bit of a flame war! 
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04-12-2008, 11:08 AM
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#35 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Hunter368 My sources quote it at close to 280 kills confirmed by the Russians themselves.
I will look for it and see if I can dig it up for you. |
AFAIK the only research which was done in Russia was the one regarding the 150 claims contained in his first log book - so the highest number can't exeed 150 anyway | |
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04-12-2008, 11:12 AM
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#36 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
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Country: | Well until proven otherwise Hartmans number of 352 stands. Why?
Because no one can claim otherwise without positive proof.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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04-12-2008, 12:03 PM
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#37 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Ramirezzz AFAIK the only research which was done in Russia was the one regarding the 150 claims contained in his first log book - so the highest number can't exeed 150 anyway | 
Even if you are correct about the the number confirmed by the Russians (which I am not 100% you are correct I am still looking for my source), that does not in anyway, shape or form mean he did not shoot down more then 150 planes.
He did shoot down many many more then 150 planes during the war.
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04-12-2008, 12:18 PM
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#38 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country: | I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft.
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04-12-2008, 12:43 PM
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#39 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country: | Ya know I have to say, over the years I've read countless articles and forum discussions with regards to the validity of Hartman's record. While there are many who wish to diminish or detract from the 352 kills Hartman allegedly achieved, I see little or no attempt to do the same to those who were right behind him, Barkhorn and Rall. It's as if those who tend to question Harman's record fail to realize that there were others who were just as skilled and who may of achieved or even exceeded the mystical 352 mark had the war continued.
I think we must all consider besides the usual over-claiming and chaotic environment of the period, those behind Hartman were netting similar results. The fact remains that, based on the preponderance of the evidence Hartman did achieve a number of kills close or if not exact to the 352 recognized by many historians. I think if this was to be downplayed, why did the Soviets place a price on his head and actually charge him in the manner they did in the post war years if he at least came close to achieving the kills claimed?????
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04-12-2008, 12:44 PM
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#40 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft. | Just looked it up in The Blond Knight of Germany: supposedly (if Toliver & Constable can be believed), the Soviets also use the figure of 352 aircraft shot down on the Russian front; when interrogated by the NKVD after the War, the dossier they had on Hartmann indicated he had shot down 352 a/c (p. 211).
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04-12-2008, 12:46 PM
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#41 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Originally Posted by SoD Stitch Just looked it up in The Blond Knight of Germany: supposedly (if Toliver & Constable can be believed), the Soviets also use the figure of 352 aircraft shot down on the Russian front; when interrogated by the NKVD after the War, the dossier they had on Hartmann indicated he had shot down 352 a/c (p. 211). | Thanks! 
And if any aviation writer can be trusted - it would be Toliver, may he rest in peace....
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04-12-2008, 12:51 PM
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#42 | | Senior Member
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Country: | Not to mention there were several Allied pilots who actually achieved a higher kill/mission rate then Erich or many other German aces. Allied pilots never had a target rich area as the Germans did in the east or west.
Why do they also not question those allied kill totals (many did not have cameras to back up their claims). Look at the massive over claiming done by all allied nations when the battle was held over enemy territory.
Pilots from all nations made claims with good intentions and tried to be honest as they could in such crazy times as a battle. They are made mistakes.
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04-12-2008, 01:24 PM
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#43 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Hunter368 | I didn't say that - I meant the highest number of his victories confirmed by the russian sources can't exceed 150 because the lost part of his log book wasn't been used in the research - and the first part contained exactly 150 victories.
That doesn't mean that he couldn't shoot down more than 150 planes - we simply don't have the another source (second part of his log book) to compare with.
Last edited by Ramirezzz : 04-12-2008 at 01:39 PM.
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04-12-2008, 01:29 PM
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#44 | | Senior Member
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Country: | Ok I see what you are saying now, I will still look for my source.
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04-12-2008, 01:37 PM
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#45 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ I believe Hartman was put on trial when in Soviet captivity. I believed the Soviet authorities charged him with the destruction of over 300 Soviet aircraft. Just by those charges (and if someone could find the reference, I know this is mentioned in the book "The Black Knight of Germany") it shows that his captors knew the man shot down way more than 150 aircraft. | this is not quite true. He was accused in the destroying of the socialist properity (railcars and a factory - not airplanes!) and and killing of civilians. Any numbers of any destroyed aircrafts were simply not been mentioned in the final sentence, as he was never accused in the destroying of it.
The Toliver and Constable book is sometimes "incorrect" regarding some historical facts. | |
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