Has a Merlin ever been put into a P-39? - Page 3 - Aircraft of World War II

MikeGazdik · 02-08-2009, 09:14 AM

The P-39 was used extensively in combat, producing Russian aces that fought against the Bf 109's and Fw 190's. But the P-63 was a late war airplane. The Russians got the vast majority of them, but from what I understand very few went to combat. By then the Russians were able to keep themselves supplied with thier own Yaks and LaGGs.

Watanbe · 02-09-2009, 04:14 AM

I know of the Russians success with the P39, although they did fight at a lower altitude! I always wondered of the operational history of the P-63! I have always highly rated the Yak 9 and LaGG 5/7 and the Russians must of thought highly enough of the cobra series to operate them along with their own fighters!

Marshall_Stack · 02-09-2009, 08:44 AM

The only thing I heard about the P-63 in combat is that the Russians used them in against the Japanese when they invaded Manchuria in 1945. Not much else though....

TheMustangRider · 02-09-2009, 12:54 PM

I read somewhere on the web that after the Russians recieved both the P-39 and the P-40, the found the P-40 to be an inferior fighter and not suitable for the close-support missions they were executing in the Russian front and on the other hand the only disadvantage they found on the P-39 is that it was not available in enough numbers and they even asked the US to stop sending P-40s and send as much P-39s as possible.

Colin1 · 02-09-2009, 02:19 PM

P-63 Combat Record

Total P-63 production was 3,303 airframes. 2,421 of these were shipped to the Soviet Union and just over 100 to the Armee d l'Air. The USAAF held on to a few for training.

The USAAF's interest went no further than target practice for bomber gunners after their High Command realised the shortcomings of the bombers' ability to defend itself using gunnery. This was Operation Pinball and entailed a P-63 being shot at with frangible rounds that lit up a light on the a/c when strikes were recorded.

Two P-63s were sent to England, where considerable interest in the merits of laminar-flow led them to take delivery of a P-63A-6 (42-68937) and a P-63A-9 (42-69423) to the RAE at Farnborough. In the course of its study, the A-6 was fitted with the streamlined bubble canopy. This a/c was damaged in a landing accident and was SOC on 18Oct45. The rest of the laminar-flow study was undertaken by the A-9 and it was finally scrapped Sep48.

One Central American country received a batch of P-63s, this being Honduras, taking on charge 5 P-63E-1s and along with 6 P-38Ls made up the mainstay of their airforce for over 5 years. One of these was damaged and provided the surviving 4 with much-needed spares. Two more were damaged and eventually all of them were replaced by F4Us.

P-63s were ferried to the Soviet Union in larger numbers than all other recipients combined, starting with the P-63C, pausing at way-stations in Alaska and Iran (imagine that). It is widely held that the P-63's reputation was short-changed as it never received the local press of the Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik, despite its proven abilities in ground attack and tank-busting.

The Soviets continued military action in the Far East, furthering their acquisition of Manchuria by annexing Sakhalin Island and parts of the Kuriles chain. The Japanese, though exhausted from WWII, fought back and destroyed 62 Soviet aircraft of all types, including 1 P-63, the details of which are unknown.

Just before the end of WWII, the USAAF began transferring P-63s to France for use by the Armee de l'Air. All a/c supplied were the penultimate P-63C-5 model.
The French originally placed an order for 300 a/c though this was later reduced to about one third of that. An initial contract for 40 a/c was signed on 03May45 and a second for 70 a/c on 04Jun45, totalling 112 a/c to which two more were added.
The P-63 was originally intended to directly supplant the existing P-39Q and L fighters but some went straight from the docks into storage. Others were used to equip several Armee de l'Air squadrons; GC9 based in Meknes, Morocco became the first to fully equip on the type.
Trouble brewed for the French in Indo-China, where the locals felt they had earned the right to govern themselves after contributing to the ousting of the Japanese during the previous war. The colonial powers had other ideas and armed conflict was on the cards.
85 P-63s were shipped to Indo-China between July and October 1950 for use by 5 Groupes on a rotational basis.
Most of these were the a/c that had been shipped straight into storage. All were armed with the standard centreline M-10 37mm cannon with 58 rounds plus 4 x .50cal machine guns, 2 in the nose and 2 in underwing gondolas. A 175gal contoured belly tank was usuallly carried and this could be supplemented by 75gal tanks outboard of the underwing guns. This fuel could be swapped for napalm or 2 500lb bombs. The centreline rack was wired for bomb release and provision was made for paired wing launchers for up to 4 HVAR rockets.

30 August 50: Ground attack sorties by 5 P-63s against Viet Minh troops.

04 September: Strafing missions against guerilla hide-outs and storage dumps; their cannons and machine guns were used to deadly effect.

Further shipments of P-63s were made to Saigon and the French had about 50 a/c in-theatre with about 10 held at an MU, Parc 482.

10 January: Less than spectacular debut for napalm

19 January: Loss of first P-63 to flak

The Viet Minh, by now being supplied by the Chinese, were getting stronger and French installations were occasionally overrun in the frequent attacks.

13 February: Air support for the garrison at Phu Loc failed to prevent it from falling

3 August: Having flown 3,703 hours of combat sorties in their P-63s, GCI/5 prepared to return home. II/5 and III/6 maintained the pressure on the guerillas but without appreciably decreasing the Viet Minh's hold on the country. The Armee de l'Air found themselves frustrated by an enemy who rarely went 'toe to toe' with them in pitched battles.

9 August: P-63 lost to flak

4 October: P-63 damaged by flak in the same area

6 October: A detachment of P-63s was sent to Lang Son to provide cover for a supply route favoured by the French.

17 October: Lt Perrotte made an emergency landing on Lang Son after being hit by small-arms fire and his a/c started streaming glycol. The French had to abandon Lang Son quickly and another P-63 was sent to destroy Perrotte's machine with a strafing run.

Normandie-Niemen arrive in-theatre, commanded by Capitaine Billoin.

3 November: III/6 moved to Cat Bi near Haiphong, where it steadily increased its sortie rate against an increasingly tough enemy who had gained control of the countryside, if not the towns.

12 February: III/6 had flown its 1,000th sortie.

March: Normandie-Niemen P-63s used for napalm against large-scale attack on Viet Minh infantry at Tra Vinh.

5 May: Loss of P-63 to flak

14 September: Loss of P-63 to flak

22 October: Loss of P-63 to flak

By the time of that last loss, the P-63 was being supplanted by the F8-F

December: Enough F8-Fs in-theatre, P-63 sorties began to tail off

January 51: 8 P-63s attack ground targets at Cho Phong

19 January: 2 P-63s fly armed recce along Thai Nguyen, flak claim one a/c

20 January: Loss of P-63 to flak

28 January: 2 P-63s failed to return from rocket strike south of Thai Nguyen

In 76 missions, I/9 lost 8 pilots and 9 a/c.

Viet Minh troops were now engaging crack French regiments in pitched battles, the P-63s supported with bombing, strafing and rocket attacks against troops and strongholds wherever they could be found. Eventually, the F8-F and F6-F completely replaced the P-63s and the F8-F in particular proved its superiority over the P-63 in the harsh conditions of Indo-China.

30 April: 24 P-63s bombed Quynh Lu, 21 of the 24 bombs hit the target.

At the end of their service 25 P-63s had been lost on ops or in accidents, 20 were SOC as war weary and 40 still in good condition were earmarked for shipment to Africa.

Sources
Bell P-39 Airacobra
Robert F Dorr & Jerry C Scutts
Crowood Aviation Series
ISBN:1 86126 348 1
Pages 134 - 144
not typed verbatim

Marshall_Stack · 02-09-2009, 03:20 PM

Does anyone know how well the external supercharger of the P-63 performed? All I know is that it has a variable speed hydraulic coupling. Being an engineer, it sounds interesting....

Colin1 · 02-09-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall_Stack

Does anyone know how well the external supercharger of the P-63 performed? All I know is that it has a variable speed hydraulic coupling. Being an engineer, it sounds interesting....

Sorry fella
my source reveals nothing on supercharger specifics, I could dig around and see what else I've got

MikeGazdik · 02-09-2009, 06:56 PM

I can also find very little about the P-63 Allison. I believe it is similar to the P-82 Mustang, so maybe we can dig up some info in that manner. One article I found alluded to the P-82 having the same engine, but I'm not sure of the accuracey of that information. Also the way it described the engine, there was no intregal first stage blower, it was all on this "external" two stage supercharger. Thats all I have been able to find. I have to get off my cheap butt and buy some books on the Airacobra / Kingcobra.

drgondog · 02-09-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeGazdik

I can also find very little about the P-63 Allison. I believe it is similar to the P-82 Mustang, so maybe we can dig up some info in that manner. One article I found alluded to the P-82 having the same engine, but I'm not sure of the accuracey of that information. Also the way it described the engine, there was no intregal first stage blower, it was all on this "external" two stage supercharger. Thats all I have been able to find. I have to get off my cheap butt and buy some books on the Airacobra / Kingcobra.

The P-82 E night fighter version had the 1710-143/145 Allisons which were basically the same as the 1650-9 (P-51H) engine with a Bendix speed density carb used for fuel monitoring.. damn good engine...doubt that it was the P-63 which I think was the -121

fly boy · 02-10-2009, 10:33 AM

one thing about it
on dec 7 1941 a p-39 pilot from one of the partys the noght before manged to get up in the air and shoot down two zeros ..... in a tux

the only pilot to get a kill in a tux other then bond

Marshall_Stack · 02-10-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fly boy

one thing about it
on dec 7 1941 a p-39 pilot from one of the partys the noght before manged to get up in the air and shoot down two zeros ..... in a tux

the only pilot to get a kill in a tux other then bond

Where at? I didn't think that there were any P-39s at Pearl Harbor, just P-40s and P-36s.

02-09-2009, 04:14 AM	#32
Watanbe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 522	I know of the Russians success with the P39, although they did fight at a lower altitude! I always wondered of the operational history of the P-63! I have always highly rated the Yak 9 and LaGG 5/7 and the Russians must of thought highly enough of the cobra series to operate them along with their own fighters! __________________

02-09-2009, 02:19 PM	#35
Colin1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 2,442	P-63 Combat Record Total P-63 production was 3,303 airframes. 2,421 of these were shipped to the Soviet Union and just over 100 to the Armee d l'Air. The USAAF held on to a few for training. The USAAF's interest went no further than target practice for bomber gunners after their High Command realised the shortcomings of the bombers' ability to defend itself using gunnery. This was Operation Pinball and entailed a P-63 being shot at with frangible rounds that lit up a light on the a/c when strikes were recorded. Two P-63s were sent to England, where considerable interest in the merits of laminar-flow led them to take delivery of a P-63A-6 (42-68937) and a P-63A-9 (42-69423) to the RAE at Farnborough. In the course of its study, the A-6 was fitted with the streamlined bubble canopy. This a/c was damaged in a landing accident and was SOC on 18Oct45. The rest of the laminar-flow study was undertaken by the A-9 and it was finally scrapped Sep48. One Central American country received a batch of P-63s, this being Honduras, taking on charge 5 P-63E-1s and along with 6 P-38Ls made up the mainstay of their airforce for over 5 years. One of these was damaged and provided the surviving 4 with much-needed spares. Two more were damaged and eventually all of them were replaced by F4Us. P-63s were ferried to the Soviet Union in larger numbers than all other recipients combined, starting with the P-63C, pausing at way-stations in Alaska and Iran (imagine that). It is widely held that the P-63's reputation was short-changed as it never received the local press of the Ilyushin-2 Shturmovik, despite its proven abilities in ground attack and tank-busting. The Soviets continued military action in the Far East, furthering their acquisition of Manchuria by annexing Sakhalin Island and parts of the Kuriles chain. The Japanese, though exhausted from WWII, fought back and destroyed 62 Soviet aircraft of all types, including 1 P-63, the details of which are unknown. Just before the end of WWII, the USAAF began transferring P-63s to France for use by the Armee de l'Air. All a/c supplied were the penultimate P-63C-5 model. The French originally placed an order for 300 a/c though this was later reduced to about one third of that. An initial contract for 40 a/c was signed on 03May45 and a second for 70 a/c on 04Jun45, totalling 112 a/c to which two more were added. The P-63 was originally intended to directly supplant the existing P-39Q and L fighters but some went straight from the docks into storage. Others were used to equip several Armee de l'Air squadrons; GC9 based in Meknes, Morocco became the first to fully equip on the type. Trouble brewed for the French in Indo-China, where the locals felt they had earned the right to govern themselves after contributing to the ousting of the Japanese during the previous war. The colonial powers had other ideas and armed conflict was on the cards. 85 P-63s were shipped to Indo-China between July and October 1950 for use by 5 Groupes on a rotational basis. Most of these were the a/c that had been shipped straight into storage. All were armed with the standard centreline M-10 37mm cannon with 58 rounds plus 4 x .50cal machine guns, 2 in the nose and 2 in underwing gondolas. A 175gal contoured belly tank was usuallly carried and this could be supplemented by 75gal tanks outboard of the underwing guns. This fuel could be swapped for napalm or 2 500lb bombs. The centreline rack was wired for bomb release and provision was made for paired wing launchers for up to 4 HVAR rockets. 30 August 50: Ground attack sorties by 5 P-63s against Viet Minh troops. 04 September: Strafing missions against guerilla hide-outs and storage dumps; their cannons and machine guns were used to deadly effect. Further shipments of P-63s were made to Saigon and the French had about 50 a/c in-theatre with about 10 held at an MU, Parc 482. 10 January: Less than spectacular debut for napalm 19 January: Loss of first P-63 to flak The Viet Minh, by now being supplied by the Chinese, were getting stronger and French installations were occasionally overrun in the frequent attacks. 13 February: Air support for the garrison at Phu Loc failed to prevent it from falling 3 August: Having flown 3,703 hours of combat sorties in their P-63s, GCI/5 prepared to return home. II/5 and III/6 maintained the pressure on the guerillas but without appreciably decreasing the Viet Minh's hold on the country. The Armee de l'Air found themselves frustrated by an enemy who rarely went 'toe to toe' with them in pitched battles. 9 August: P-63 lost to flak 4 October: P-63 damaged by flak in the same area 6 October: A detachment of P-63s was sent to Lang Son to provide cover for a supply route favoured by the French. 17 October: Lt Perrotte made an emergency landing on Lang Son after being hit by small-arms fire and his a/c started streaming glycol. The French had to abandon Lang Son quickly and another P-63 was sent to destroy Perrotte's machine with a strafing run. Normandie-Niemen arrive in-theatre, commanded by Capitaine Billoin. 3 November: III/6 moved to Cat Bi near Haiphong, where it steadily increased its sortie rate against an increasingly tough enemy who had gained control of the countryside, if not the towns. 12 February: III/6 had flown its 1,000th sortie. March: Normandie-Niemen P-63s used for napalm against large-scale attack on Viet Minh infantry at Tra Vinh. 5 May: Loss of P-63 to flak 14 September: Loss of P-63 to flak 22 October: Loss of P-63 to flak By the time of that last loss, the P-63 was being supplanted by the F8-F December: Enough F8-Fs in-theatre, P-63 sorties began to tail off January 51: 8 P-63s attack ground targets at Cho Phong 19 January: 2 P-63s fly armed recce along Thai Nguyen, flak claim one a/c 20 January: Loss of P-63 to flak 28 January: 2 P-63s failed to return from rocket strike south of Thai Nguyen In 76 missions, I/9 lost 8 pilots and 9 a/c. Viet Minh troops were now engaging crack French regiments in pitched battles, the P-63s supported with bombing, strafing and rocket attacks against troops and strongholds wherever they could be found. Eventually, the F8-F and F6-F completely replaced the P-63s and the F8-F in particular proved its superiority over the P-63 in the harsh conditions of Indo-China. 30 April: 24 P-63s bombed Quynh Lu, 21 of the 24 bombs hit the target. At the end of their service 25 P-63s had been lost on ops or in accidents, 20 were SOC as war weary and 40 still in good condition were earmarked for shipment to Africa. Sources Bell P-39 Airacobra Robert F Dorr & Jerry C Scutts Crowood Aviation Series ISBN:1 86126 348 1 Pages 134 - 144 not typed verbatim Last edited by Colin1; 06-21-2009 at 04:22 AM.

02-10-2009, 10:33 AM	#40
fly boy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 857	one thing about it on dec 7 1941 a p-39 pilot from one of the partys the noght before manged to get up in the air and shoot down two zeros ..... in a tux the only pilot to get a kill in a tux other then bond __________________

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02-08-2009, 09:14 AM	#31
MikeGazdik Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 273	The P-39 was used extensively in combat, producing Russian aces that fought against the Bf 109's and Fw 190's. But the P-63 was a late war airplane. The Russians got the vast majority of them, but from what I understand very few went to combat. By then the Russians were able to keep themselves supplied with thier own Yaks and LaGGs.

02-09-2009, 08:44 AM	#33
Marshall_Stack Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 387	The only thing I heard about the P-63 in combat is that the Russians used them in against the Japanese when they invaded Manchuria in 1945. Not much else though....

02-09-2009, 12:54 PM	#34
TheMustangRider Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: United States Posts: 82	I read somewhere on the web that after the Russians recieved both the P-39 and the P-40, the found the P-40 to be an inferior fighter and not suitable for the close-support missions they were executing in the Russian front and on the other hand the only disadvantage they found on the P-39 is that it was not available in enough numbers and they even asked the US to stop sending P-40s and send as much P-39s as possible.

02-09-2009, 03:20 PM	#36
Marshall_Stack Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 387	Does anyone know how well the external supercharger of the P-63 performed? All I know is that it has a variable speed hydraulic coupling. Being an engineer, it sounds interesting....

02-09-2009, 06:56 PM	#38
MikeGazdik Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 273	I can also find very little about the P-63 Allison. I believe it is similar to the P-82 Mustang, so maybe we can dig up some info in that manner. One article I found alluded to the P-82 having the same engine, but I'm not sure of the accuracey of that information. Also the way it described the engine, there was no intregal first stage blower, it was all on this "external" two stage supercharger. Thats all I have been able to find. I have to get off my cheap butt and buy some books on the Airacobra / Kingcobra.