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Thread: Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat

  1. #226
    Senior Member slaterat's Avatar
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    Yes that is a very cool video of the KI-43 on u tube. I've always thought that the zero was an ugly plane but that the Oscar was a very clean and sleek design. I've got a 1/72 Hasegawa model of one hanging in my basement.

    In reguards to the airframe, the Hurricane would be far tougher than the
    F4F or the p 40. There are several reasons for this.

    The F4F, P40 and most WW II planes are of stressed skin construction, meaning that the skin of the aircraft is part of the load bearing structure of the aircraft. Any damage to the skin brings a resultant loss in the structural integrity of the airframe. These airframes are vunerable to machine guns ripping the skin or the overpressure from cannon shells rupturing the skin. The Hurricane is based on an older English method of construction. Although tubular steel airframes had been used since WW I, most of these used low quality mild steel that was welded together. This resulted in a heavy airframe that wasn't really that strong. Hawkers solution to the problem was to use lightweight high quality steel alloys held together with mechanical fastners.
    This type of structure is very resistant to damage especially from over pressure but also from mg fire. It was also much more easily repaired. The wing is a two spar structure running clean through the fuselage. The spars are also made of steel , the two in the center section being made of heat treated spring steel using Hawkers welll known dumbell spar. The only stressed skin construction on the Hurricane was from the gun bays outward to the wing tips. Keep in mind the Hurricanes wings are also 18 inches thick at the gun bays adding to this immense strength. For its size the Hurricane is relatively light , the main drawback of this type of construction is that it leads to a bulkier less efficient airframe.



    Slaterat

  2. #227
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    The Hurricane Mk.I (and Maybe IIA) had fabric covered wings! And all Hurricanes had a fabric skinned rear fusalage iirc.

    Also nearing 500 mph air compressing in the pilot tube caused massive overreadings of airspeed on most airspeed indicators of the era. The Hurricane, P-40, P-39, and similar a/c topped out between 450-500 mph for the safe limit for structural and controll limitations. (also, the P-38 was strong enough to dive faster but the controll problems limited pilots from doing this safely and could only recover from a 500+ mph dive with the recovery flaps)

    Another thing: I'm not sure but I think the P-40 had better engine armor than the Hurricane (the Allison and Merlin engines themselves should be able to take similar damage) and the Merlins used in the BoB also used 100% glycol coolant (prestone) which was quite flamable, particularly at engine temperatures, so engine/radiator fires could be big problems, fast! This wasn't a problem for later merlins using 70/30 water/coolant mix which the V-1710 also used which was realitively non flamable and more efficient at cooling. (better heat capacity)


    And here's a good example of a 90 degree deflection shot: YouTube - Dogfights: " F6F Hellcat " 1 of 5


    I don't see the Zero as ugly though, The Ki 43-II and A6M-2 were fairly similar looking a/c and the planform of the Ki 43 is a bit sleeker with the more tapered fusalage and the Oscar's canopy was a bit nicer (smaller and less framing) but I wouldn't say the Zero was ugly.
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 03-15-2008 at 08:04 PM.

  3. #228
    Senior Member slaterat's Avatar
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    Only the first 450 or so Hurricanes had fabric covered wings. Production was switched over half way through the second batch of 300. Thats out of nearly 15,000.

    Slaterat

  4. #229
    Senior Member claidemore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slaterat View Post
    Only the first 450 or so Hurricanes had fabric covered wings. Production was switched over half way through the second batch of 300. Thats out of nearly 15,000.

    Slaterat
    I think metal skinned wings on Hurricanes were appearing in France in 1940 well before BoB. I seem to remember some of the 262 Squadron pilots mentioning them.

    They dress up Harvards to look like Zeros in movies, and I don't see people raving about how pretty Harvards are! (joking)

    I know two sisters, very similar features, almost like twins, but one is considered very pretty, the other one not. The slightest difference in proportions or angles makes a world of difference in human perception of beauty. Paint helps too, on planes and sisters.

    Claidemore
    The trouble with most people isn't what they don't know....it's what they do know that simply isn't so.

  5. #230
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    So the late Mk.I had metal wings and the Mk.IIA would have had the same 8x gun all-metal wing?


    And of course beauty is in the eye of the heholder, I pesonally like the looks of the P-47 over the P-51 (and the 190-A over the 190-D), and lets not get into Lanc's obsession over the looks of the Lancaster and French bombers...

    Hoever I like the looks of the Ki 43 more too, but the Zero is certainly not UGLY...
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 03-15-2008 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #231
    Senior Member slaterat's Avatar
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    Correct. There were less than 5000 mk 1s, so thats about the first 10 % of mk Is were fabric covered wings. AFAIK there's only 1 left in the world with thse early wings.

    The front armour on the Hurricane was primarily to protect the pilot although the armour plate behind the spinner would add some protection for the engine. Large scale protection for the engine and rad was only added to the MK II D and MK IV 380 and 350lbs each.

    Slaterat.
    Last edited by slaterat; 03-15-2008 at 09:22 PM.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    So the late Mk.I had metal wings and the Mk.IIA would have had the same 8x gun all-metal wing?
    Hurricane production commenced with Serial No. L1547. It was in 1939 that a late production IA, Serial No. N2423, incorporated the metal-skin wings on the production line.

    It was only the "first 100 or so" of the IIA that had the 8-gun arrangement...


  8. #233
    Senior Member slaterat's Avatar
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    All IIa s had 8 gun wings
    IIb 12 gun wing
    IIc 4 x 20mm
    Later in the Desert and in SE Asia many IIbs and IIcs had their armament reduced to 8x303 and 2x20mm, in the interest of increased performance.

    Slaterat
    Last edited by slaterat; 03-15-2008 at 10:45 PM.

  9. #234
    Senior Member slaterat's Avatar
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    About 4711 Hurricanes were IIcs, the most produced model

    Slaterat

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by slaterat View Post
    All IIa s had 8 gun wings
    IIb 12 gun wing
    IIc 4 x 20mm
    Later in the Desert and in SE Asia many IIbs and IIcs had their armament reduced to 8x303 and 2x20mm, in the interest of increased performance.

    Slaterat
    Ahh..thanks for the correction Slaterat. Makes sense as further on, the article describes the IIC as "introducing" cannon. Certainly a prolific number of variants for the Hurricane.

  11. #236
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting interview of a Japanese pilot on the Ki 43 in 1991: YouTube - Mr. Yohei HInoki Japanese Ace Pilot (English Sub) (Note: he refers to heavy machine guns of later Ki 43's and the .50 cal US guns as "cannons") Also the "type 2 fighter" should refer to the Ki 44.

    Very interesting account, and much criticism of the a/c though he does mention the graseful "sleek lines" of the a/c.

    Is this the youtube video of the Ki 43 that you were talking about? YouTube - Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa (Peregrine Falcon)

    That certainly shows the Ki 43's roll performance! If that's real time it would be over 180 degrees per second. (even more than the Fw 190A rolling with torq!)

  12. #237
    IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO FLYBOYJ's Avatar
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    The Oscar was probably the most maneuverable monoplane all metal fighter of WW2. Like the Zero, no armor plating made it burn pretty easily. It featured a butterfly split flap that made it turn on a dime.

  13. #238
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Also there's the Hayabusa song: YouTube - ?????? -Kato Hayabusa Fighter Wing-

  14. #239
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    I thought the Ki 43 had a small armor plate behind the pilot and self-sealing tanks (albeit even more inadequate than the B-339E, F2A-3, or even P-43's).

    This being before the later model A6Ms were made which added armor.

    But as seen in the interview I posted even with more armor the structure of the plane was frail and easily damaged. (please do watch it it's quite interesting) He also notes that it was hard for the Ki 43 to pursue enemies due to low speed and that it was slower than the Hurricane. Along with this he says that it was as bad as the Ki-27 (type-1 Fighter) with vibrations at high speeds. (probably ~330+ mph)

  15. #240
    IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO FLYBOYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    I thought the Ki 43 had a small armor plate behind the pilot and self-sealing tanks
    As far as I know it had neither - you might be confusing the armor plate behind the pilot for a "turtleback" - a piece of structure that prevented the pilot from being crushed it the aircraft flipped over.

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