Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat

[Jabberwocky]

Just to add some fuel to the fire, the Hurricane and the Wildcat actually carried out a mock dogfight in July, 1943.

Both sets of pilots had completed combat tours and the fight took place in England.

This is also shamelessly stolen from the IL2 Sturmovik forums, where the discussion was rehashed in much the same way (for about 10 pages). I know its plagurism of the worst sort, but hey, it helps with the discussion, right?


All the Fine Young Eagles by David L. Bashow
ISBN; 0-7737-2976-3

Page 248-9.

After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcat versus the Hurricane. It continued until the American issued a challenge they would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning. The tactics were simple. Four pairs, each consisting of a Wildcat and a Hurricane, would meet at an agreed upon altitude, in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North. West. South and East of the airport. They would meet, fly in formation for a minute or two, then break up and approach each other head on. From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellow's tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side. We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show. Everything went according to plan. The aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dog fighting. In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.

After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash over the situation. The Americans seemed completely nonplused by the turn of events. They could not understand how things could have turned out the way they had. It must have been some kind of aberration that could never happen again, so they issued another challenge for the following afternoon. This time, they announced. Flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Hurricane 5485. That afternoon the two readiness aircraft: equipped with depth charges**, were sitting on the tarmac. "Butch" Washburn and "Gibby" Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me. "You know Bill, I think we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft." "Why not?" I replied ... "Have a go." We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats once again. Butch Washburn was so keen that he stayed on the Wildcat's tail until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was the better aircraft. Even when it was ladened with depth charges. We had a party in the Mess that night with the Americans becoming more generous and more lavish with their praise as the evening wore on. According to some of them, if 128 Squadron, complete with aircraft and personnel. could suddenly be transported to the Pacific Theater, we would make short work of the Japanese Air Force. Yes, it was a great party ...

**OK so before you jump all over me that Hurricanes can't carry depth charges it was a local improvisation.

From the same book page. 245-46;

Flying at Torbay took on an operational atmosphere. The Cansos and Venturas were almost constantly on patrol, and they occasionally returned to base after encountering a German Submarine. These attacks bolstered everyone's morale.
Shortly after we reached Torbay, someone in our armament section devised a way to make bomb racks out of the angle iron used in the double bunks so familiar to all service personnel. The racks were okayed by Eastern Air Command Headquarters in Halifax, and for the rest of the time at Torbay we were able to carry a depth charge under each wing. Four of our Hurricanes were fitted with these racks, and two aircraft were kept on constant readiness. Also, with twelve machine guns on each aircraft, the Hurricanes constituted a very formidable weapon against an enemy submarine.

A British Major, an armament expert, arrived about this time from London. The purpose of his visit was to discuss with aircrew the latest tactics of German submarines. Instead of diving immediately on seeing a patrol aircraft, the subs were now armed with deck guns and were shooting back. Several patrol aircraft had been shot down. All available crew from the three Torbay squadrons were called together for a talk by the Major, who spent most of his time raving about the Hurricanes armed with depth charges that he had seen on the flight line. "In all my travels to squadrons around the worId," he said, "I have never seen such a deadly combination. The Number One aircraft could clear the deck of all living things with one burst from his twelve machine guns, and Number Two could drop his depth charges at leisure. It's marvelous!" After his talks, the Major visited our Squadron and talked with the pilots. He left an Air Ministry address with Squadron Leader Cannon, the CO, and made him promise to forward to him the results of any encounters a Hurricane might have with a German submarine. "No matter where I am in the world, I'll get the message." There was no message to pass on to the Major for two reasons. Firstly, we never did get to attack a German sub, and secondly, the same day as his visit, a Canso carrying the Major to Botwood, Newfoundland, crashed while landing on glassy water, killing everyone on board, including the Major."

So what does this mock combat prove?

Almost nothing.

It proves that on that day with those pilots in those specific planes that the Hurricane pilots won. That’s all it proves. It doesn’t prove that the USN pilots were inferior or that the Hurricane was superior. It means that on that day they got beat. That’s all, its anecdotal.

[FLYBOYJ]

Good Stuff! I used to live close to Edwards AFB in California, I worked at Mojave Airport, about 30 miles to the north. During WW2 Edwards (then called Muroc) was a huge AAF base. Mojave was a Marine base. In 1943 there was a P-38 training squadron at Muroc and an F4F squadron at Mojave. Legend has it that these guys would battle it out over the windy skies of the "Antelope Valley" and sometimes the Wildcats won over the P-38s!

[vanir]

Yeah, I'd still pick a Wildcat over a Hurricane, especially one of the early wooden-prop ones used at the start of the BoB.

Aside from cannon equipped jobs, it'd probably take a few hits and you could outdive the living hell out of 'em. In head to head squadron combat, I'm guessing you're going to take a few hits no matter what you're in.

[plan_D]

Hawk-75s during Operation Torch shot down a few Wildcats and they were equipped with six .30 cal. The Hurricane IIB has 12 .30 cal, I think it could destroy them quite effectively.

[vanir]

Yeah but how many rounds did they have to put in 'em? Rumour of the PTO is Wildcats could take damage others would fall apart with.

[plan_D]

The rugged but it was no Corsair or Thunderbolt, I reckon 12 .30 cal wouldn't have too much trouble. I don't know exactly how many rounds would have to hit the Wildcat but with an increase in RoF due to the massive amount of guns, it would increase chances of hitting a vital spot.

On top of all that, the Hurricane isn't exactly weak. It could take a lot of punishment and get home.

[Glider]

Last year we went to Newfoundland for our holiday and I read up on the Hurricane squadrons based thee. They also used to arm their planes with depth charges so great minds think alike.
Pity it wasn't taken up more widely

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i don't know if these were just typos but a few people have said the Hurricance Mk.IIB was armed with .30s, they were actually .303s.........

[plan_D]

.30s, .303s and 7.62 mm are all basically the same round. Stop being a *****.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'm just thinking that some people might come on here, take that information as fact and miss use it again and again.........

[plan_D]

No because everyone knows it's .303 cal. Plus the fact, even if they did say .30 everyone would know what they're talking about since it's basically the same.

In fact, it might even be the same but the Americans miss off the last three.

[Jabberwocky]

From what I have read the Hurricane seems to have been more of a 'pilots aircraft'. It was small and light and very nimble, a real challenge but at the samwe time a joy to fly.

The Wildcat, on the other hand, seems o me to be a more effective team aircraft (or though that may be an aspect of the eventual tactics that were evolved for it) or maybe a machine that was simply designed for a war rather than combat. It was fairly heavy, very rugged, nicely armoured, could dive well and was more than adequately manuverable (although not compared to it Japanese opponents, who had a veritable mania for agile single seat fighters).

Put these aircraft in a one-on-one situation and I would feel more confident in a Hurricane. Lighter, more agile in the horizontal and vertical and more heavily armed in later versions. As an offensive weapon in a classic dogfight its the superior aircraft.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately from another perspective, WW2 aviation didn't work like that. It was a TEAM effort. Co-operative tactics were a pre requisite for sucess. A one-on-one or even a four-on-four enccunter was unlikely. Usually there were DOZENS of fighters involved in engagements. Here is where the Wildcat, with its survivability and escapability, tends to come out on top.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

From what I have read the Hurricane seems to have been more of a 'pilots aircraft'. It was small and light and very nimble, a real challenge but at the samwe time a joy to fly.

The Wildcat, on the other hand, seems o me to be a more effective team aircraft (or though that may be an aspect of the eventual tactics that were evolved for it) or maybe a machine that was simply designed for a war rather than combat. It was fairly heavy, very rugged, nicely armoured, could dive well and was more than adequately manuverable (although not compared to it Japanese opponents, who had a veritable mania for agile single seat fighters).

I think this is a good way of putting it!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yes that's a good way to sum it up but i'd still pick the hurricane in a one-to-one..........

[FLYBOYJ]

I'd take an F4F over a Mk I.