He-162 Salamander

[Elvis]

The basket makes a good point.
I've always understood that "The People's Fighter" was engineered to be easy to fly and cheap to build, because these were the concerns facing the Germans during that part of the war.

...still, as "nice" looking as it is, I have issues with a wooden aircraft powered by a fire breathing jet engine, positioned the way it is.



Elvis

[Soren]

Haha Elvis, don't worry about it catching fire, the skin is metal and so is the mountings around the engine. So no risk of fires.

As for it being easy to fly, well it was if you were used to such light control forces, but a rookie having flwon only piston engined a/c will have a very hard time in it. Again it wasn't a plane for rookies, besides the requirement was that it had to be.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by The Basket

The difference between the 162 and other combat aircraft was it was designed so it could be flown by HJ who had some time in gliders. Very low hour pilots indeed.

Eric Brown believed this bit was a joke as no novice was going to fly the 162 safely.

So the 162 did not meet its design brief.

It doesn't matter that it didn't meet this single requirement in the design brief, because this design requirement is impossible to meet by anyone! Building a high performance frontline fighter easy to fly for a first time rookie is impossible.

So Eric Brown wasn't wrong when he said that it was a joke to have young Hitler Youth boys fy this a/c, an opinion which was mirrored by the German pilots who thought it equally insane to have young untrained Hitler Youth boys fly such a high performance a/c.

The point is that it was equally insane to have young untrained pilots go fly any other frontline fighter as-well, simple reason being that you need allot of time in trainers before you can step in and safely fly a full powered frontline fighter solo.

The short range of the 162 meant it could only be used for point defence of its own airfield.

606 miles is a pretty long way Basket, more than enuogh to ensure that the a/c could be used as a regular air defence fighter.

Fact is the design was excellent in every way, and if there was fuel and the engine worked (Plus if the a/c was in good condition, which would've been far from most) and a trained pilot behind the controls it was litterally unbeatable.

[Evil_Merlin]

I really don't consider an endurance of 30-35 minutes of flight time unbeatable.

[Soren]

You really are a nitpicker..

At 500+ mph you're also going to reach your target a good deal faster, and regardless range was 606 miles.

Also had it entered service in lets say late 44 like the Me-262 it wouldn't have taken long before fittings for drop tanks were attached.

Anyway by 1944 it wasn't long range a/c the LW was needing, it needed aircraft like the Me-262 & He-162 which were so fast that they could attack th bomber streams with impunity. But there were never enough of them, and the lacking fuel supply made sure that not even 50% of the already few a/c available were ever operational. The war was lost by late 44, there were simply too many enemies to fight and too little fuel, men & ammunition to fight them with.

[The Basket]

I understand your point but the question is whether the 162 would have entered service in the RAF or USAAC...I think not.

I doubt they would have accepted it.

Even if the 162 could go at the bombers it was no use in the ground attack role. and the Germans needed a good one of those too.

The 162 took away resources that may have been better spent on the Ar 234 or Me 262.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by The Basket

I understand your point but the question is whether the 162 would have entered service in the RAF or USAAC...I think not.

I doubt they would have accepted it.

As a defensive fighter they would have happily accepted it, however that's not what the Allies needed. And besides the Me-262 was an allround much better choice.

Even if the 162 could go at the bombers it was no use in the ground attack role.and the Germans needed a good one of those too.

I agree here, but I'd like to point out that none of early jets would've been any good in that role, acceleration in dives was simply too great.

The 162 took away resources that may have been better spent on the Ar 234 or Me 262.

The He-162 was cheaper and faster to build, and that is what the LW needed at that point. Had Germany been on the offensive I would agree with you that the resources would be much better spent on the Me-262 & Ar-234, no doubt.

[buzzard]

Soren,

I was unaware that the French had utilized the He-162 for training purposes, and upon checking it out (A French language Armee de L'Air site) , found that a couple of A-2s had been used for slightly over a year (April 47-July 48 ) to familiarize 30 pilots in jet operations. Which ceased upon the structural failure of one and the resultant death of its pilot. Since we can reasonably assume that by 1947, the inherent traits of the A/C were fairly well-understood, we can also assume that the French pilots would have also been warned of its limitations. So I don't think that the plane's record as a trainer is esp. stellar. Certainly the French didn't think so.

One thing I find rather incongruous is the claim of a range of 600 miles. Given that everything I've read gives the He-162 an endurance of 30 minutes( At least two pilots were killed attempting deadstick landings due to running out of fuel), how do the two figures correlate? I'm pretty sure that it couldn't maintain an average speed of 1200 MPH, including take-off and landing...

In its brief operational history, it seems that accidents and enemy action resulted in a very negative kill/loss ratio. This is hardly the hallmark of a great fighter.

The true merit of a fighter must depend on how successfully it meet the goals of its design. The He-162 was an act of desperation, rushed into production and service despite a number of innate flaws. While its's true that the goal was unrealistic, the judgement of the effectiveness of a war machine must be based on what the machine actually does, not on a lot of 'what ifs', and 'if only's... The operational record of the He-162 was abysmal, and that is the criteria on which it should be rated. It was a failure; extremely undependable, structurally inadequate, and arguably more dangerous to its own pilots than to the enemy. It brings to mind another German intercepter with stunning performance...the Me-163.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Glider

It isn't often Soren and I are in total agreement but we are in this case. Eric Brown was probably unique at this time as he had flown all the jets then flying, German, American and British and this was the one he liked the most.

Re the rudder being overly sensitive, no doubt if the German designers had a little more time, this would have been resolved in the normal process of moving an aircraft from prototype to production. Its what test flying is designed to do.

I suspect the rudder limit design was slow speed control as in landing. This is an extremely short coupled airframe meaning larger control surface required for low speed stability and control.

I don't KNOW this to be true - just my observation.

[The Basket]

I said before that the 162 did have some good stuff but it was no where near up to operational standard.

The RAF may have accepted an aircraft with the 162s performance but the aircraft itself was just not up to it.

The range was strictly point interceptor although not as bad as the Me 163.

On paper...the 162 was good and considering the circumstances of it construction...it certainly was far better than it could have been.

But it did zip...absolute zip. No better than the Do 335. It certainly earns no combat medals that's for sure.

The 162 shows the lunacy of the German leaders for ordering such an impossible fighter and the excellence of the German engineers who even with every disadvantage in the book could still build a workable 500mph fighter.

[Henk]

Oh what a great aircraft if you look at the design period and the time it was build and how greatly she was designed and then the fact that she was a all round great fighter. She will remain a classic and made the world look differently at the way aircraft is designed.

[Elvis]

Are we sure the design would not make for a good (or at least "decent") ground attack aircraft?
The engine positioning, at least, is per-fect for such duties.
This is why the engines on the A-10 are mounted rather high and far apart from each other.

...and Soren, better safe than sorry, I say.
Still, thanks for putting my mind at ease.










Elvis

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by Soren

and if there was fuel and the engine worked (Plus if the a/c was in good condition, which would've been far from most) and a trained pilot behind the controls it was litterally unbeatable.

"If wishes and buts were candies and nuts, it would be xmas every day."

If the F-86 were available in 1939... things woulda been different!!!



.

[Henk]

Well if it was not for the German advanced jet technology the world would not have gone so far with jet aircraft as it has today.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by buzzard

Soren,

I was unaware that the French had utilized the He-162 for training purposes, and upon checking it out (A French language Armee de L'Air site) , found that a couple of A-2s had been used for slightly over a year (April 47-July 48 ) to familiarize 30 pilots in jet operations. Which ceased upon the structural failure of one and the resultant death of its pilot. Since we can reasonably assume that by 1947, the inherent traits of the A/C were fairly well-understood, we can also assume that the French pilots would have also been warned of its limitations. So I don't think that the plane's record as a trainer is esp. stellar. Certainly the French didn't think so.

The French used the He-162 for two years as a trainer, from 46 to 48 before getting the Vampire, and allot more than 30 pilots got to fly it. And considering that it only had ONE crash in two years gives it a rather good record as a trainer.

However that having been said the He-162 was NOT the ideal training a/c, no frontline fighter was. The very sensitive controls of the He-162 didn't help matters either.

In short the He-162 was a FIGHTER not a trainer.

One thing I find rather incongruous is the claim of a range of 600 miles. Given that everything I've read gives the He-162 an endurance of 30 minutes( At least two pilots were killed attempting deadstick landings due to running out of fuel), how do the two figures correlate? I'm pretty sure that it couldn't maintain an average speed of 1200 MPH, including take-off and landing...

The tested max range was 606 miles, or 975 km, at cruising speed which was 500+ mph . The endurance figures I wouldn't rely too much on.

In its brief operational history, it seems that accidents and enemy action resulted in a very negative kill/loss ratio. This is hardly the hallmark of a great fighter.

Again you be ignorant and say the above, or you can try to investigate why it did as it did.

First of all remember who flew the a/c! It was rookies who flew this bird, and thus couldn't expect much if anything of any fighter.

Also remember that fuel was low and the Germans were seriously outnumbered everytime they took off.

Finally just two He-162's were shot down, and two to three enemy aircraft were claimed shot down by He-162's. Not too bad considering that the He-162's were flown by rookies with hardly any time behind the stick.

The true merit of a fighter must depend on how successfully it meet the goals of its design. The He-162 was an act of desperation, rushed into production and service despite a number of innate flaws.

That's wrong however.

While its's true that the goal was unrealistic, the judgement of the effectiveness of a war machine must be based on what the machine actually does, not on a lot of 'what ifs', and 'if only's... The operational record of the He-162 was abysmal, and that is the criteria on which it should be rated.

Again this has already been disproved.

It was a failure; extremely undependable, structurally inadequate, and arguably more dangerous to its own pilots than to the enemy.

And that's just plain ridiculous! The bird was flown by rookies for crying out loud!

If the aircraft was more dangerous to its own pilots than to the enemy then it wouldn't just have had ONE crash in over two years with young rookie pilots still learning how to fly behind the controls!

Infact the He-162 did REMARKABLY well considering it was flown by rookies against skilled enemy pilots who ounumbered them 10 to 1!

It brings to mind another German intercepter with stunning performance...the Me-163.

The Me.163 isn't even in the same class. The Me-163 was more an experiment than anything else, and with an endurance of 7min it could hardly make it to the bombers before running out of fuel.