He277: Promising? Or further development of a bad apple?

[johnbr]

The He 277 was also faster then the He177.What it did need was a pair of BMW 022.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree delycros. The He-177, He-274, He-277 were all promising designs but were no longer needed.

Interesting stuff V-1710, I knew about some of the design flaws with the coupled engines but not all of them. Good stuff.

[Twitch]

Uh, the main difference of the He 177 and the subsequent 274 and 277 was that the latter pair were conceived as high altitude bombers. The He 274 with an offensive load of 8,800 lbs. could reach 42,650 feet with a maximum altitude of 46, 920 feet. It could hit 360 MPH at 36,090 feet too. Range was 2,640 miles, less than the 177's 3,400 miles.

Like the He 274 the He 277 abandoned the problematic engine coupling and used four nacelles. The 277B-5/R2 was set up to hit 49,210 feet. Max speed was 354 MPH but range was 3,728 miles.

The He 277B-6/R1 could do 348 MPH, hit 43,960 feer but had a range of 4,475miles. Both models could 1,100 lbs of internal ordnance but were set up to carry 5,512 lbs of SC 2500 bombs, Henschel he 293 or 294 missiles or the FX 1400 Fritz X guided bombs externally.

[Marshall_Stack]

Would the HE 177 have been a better bomber if not given the direction of being "dive bomer capable"?

[delcyros]

Hard to say. I always believed that the structural reinforcements made the plane more sturdy and allowed to take much more battle damage than a plane of it´s size could usually take. The main problem has been pointed out above, the engine coupling. Without structural reinforcements and with a smaller airframe design, the plane could probably be driven by two BMW 801 TJ with almost equal performance, but who knows?

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't know guys, after reading all this (and having a maintainer's background) I think the HE.177/ 277 was just a giant pile of crap and would of been a nightmare to maintain!!! Maintenance wise i think it might of made the B-29 look like a Piper Cub!!!!!!

[delcyros]

Generally spoken, I tend to disagree, but not by much. The B-29 with it´s sophisticated AA systems is much more worrisome to maintain than a refined He-177. Nethertheless this ship needed manpower and more worrisome: high grade fuel. A single Geschwader (100-120 planes) would take about 1/5 of the Reichs high grade fuel reserves in less than two weeks!
Another reason to move towards jet propulsion, they could use the low grade fuel, still avaiable for the Luftwaffe in 1945.

[V-1710]

Did any He-177's survive the war? I seem to remember seeing a picture of an He-177 in U.S.A.A.F. markings, taken at the end of the war.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Twitch

Uh, the main difference of the He 177 and the subsequent 274 and 277 was that the latter pair were conceived as high altitude bombers. The He 274 with an offensive load of 8,800 lbs. could reach 42,650 feet with a maximum altitude of 46, 920 feet. It could hit 360 MPH at 36,090 feet too. Range was 2,640 miles, less than the 177's 3,400 miles.

Like the He 274 the He 277 abandoned the problematic engine coupling and used four nacelles. The 277B-5/R2 was set up to hit 49,210 feet. Max speed was 354 MPH but range was 3,728 miles.

The He 277B-6/R1 could do 348 MPH, hit 43,960 feer but had a range of 4,475miles. Both models could 1,100 lbs of internal ordnance but were set up to carry 5,512 lbs of SC 2500 bombs, Henschel he 293 or 294 missiles or the FX 1400 Fritz X guided bombs externally.

Imagine if the Luftwaffe had bombers with that alltitude and that could carry that magnitude of bomb load in 1940 during the Battle of Britian.

[Twitch]

Adler- They were on the right track with the Ju 86P in mid 1940- a little too late for quantity production. However an undetected photo recon sortie was flown at 41,000 in the summer during the BoB. Several Ju 86P-1s and P-2s were delivered to 2./Aufkl.gr.Ob.d.L in 1940 and some missions were flown over the British Isles.

They were powered by Jumo 207A-1 6-cylinder diesels. The original concept was as a bomber with a slow climb to over 39,000 feet and cruise at 215 MPH to target, drop to 32-33,000 feet, release 2,200 lbs. of ordnance and go back up to 37,000 for the return home.

Don't know why but they were only used and developed further as high altitude recon ships.

[Henk]

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Twitch

Adler- They were on the right track with the Ju 86P in mid 1940- a little too late for quantity production. However an undetected photo recon sortie was flown at 41,000 in the summer during the BoB. Several Ju 86P-1s and P-2s were delivered to 2./Aufkl.gr.Ob.d.L in 1940 and some missions were flown over the British Isles.

They were powered by Jumo 207A-1 6-cylinder diesels. The original concept was as a bomber with a slow climb to over 39,000 feet and cruise at 215 MPH to target, drop to 32-33,000 feet, release 2,200 lbs. of ordnance and go back up to 37,000 for the return home.

Don't know why but they were only used and developed further as high altitude recon ships.

Yeah I read about that mission and knew of the Ju-86 as well. I have some interesting pictures of the photo recon version in a book of mine about KG-200.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Henk

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

Plenty survived the war. I just dont know what happened to them after the war. I believe 1 or 2 are in museums. I think the National Air and Space Museum has one but it is not on display right now.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I don't know guys, after reading all this (and having a maintainer's background) I think the HE.177/ 277 was just a giant pile of crap and would of been a nightmare to maintain!!! Maintenance wise i think it might of made the B-29 look like a Piper Cub!!!!!!

I'm with you Flyboy. I think that my thread has come full circle. I too have a real world airworthiness background and think this plane was plagued by too many technical issues requiring their resolution in a very short time for the airplane to accomplish its intended mission. Doesn't mean I don't find the airplane as one of the most beatiful to have come out of the war though.

[V-1710]

N.A.S.M. (Smithsonian) has a He-219, of all things, but doesn't seem to have an He-177.