He277: Promising? Or further development of a bad apple?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Matt308

I'm with you Flyboy. I think that my thread has come full circle. I too have a real world airworthiness background and think this plane was plagued by too many technical issues requiring their resolution in a very short time for the airplane to accomplish its intended mission. Doesn't mean I don't find the airplane as one of the most beatiful to have come out of the war though.

I agree fully with you on what you are saying and I too am an aviation mechanic, I just believe that with eneogh time the He-177 could have turned into a fine aircraft.

[Neilster]

Originally Posted by delcyros

Original question belongs to whether or not this plane was promising.
I tend to disagree. The He-277 (and to a lesser degree the He-274) were technically interesting planes, worth mentioning. But by their time, the Luftwaffe had other needs than strategical bombers. Fighter and tactical bombers were urgently needed. They already developed V-1 and V-2, which to some degree could substitute the role of a strategical bomber for much lower costs. With the numerical superiority of first class piston A/C the allied had in this stage of war in mind, a new strategical bomber design is only justified in case it is either very fast (requiring jet propulsion) or flying extremely high or both.

I agree with your last point especially. The V2 was a total disaster from an economical point of view though. It carried only about 1000kg, was pretty inaccurate and each one cost a fortune, not to mention the expense of all their associated testing and launching infrastructure. They didn't even do much damage as they tended to bury themselves in the ground before exploding due to their high velocity. The program gobbled up heaps of resources in numerous fields such as electronics that stalled more worthy projects like the anti aircraft missiles.

To have had a serious strategic bomber in time to make a difference, the Luftwaffe would have had to develop the Ju 89.

Cheers, Neilster

[Neilster]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I agree fully with you on what you are saying and I too am an aviation mechanic, I just believe that with eneogh time the He-177 could have turned into a fine aircraft.

They got them going quite well in the end but the development took so long that the strategic picture had completely changed and as has been already noted, they were no longer a good use of resources.

They were never popular with their crews too.

Cheers, Neilster

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Neilster

They got them going quite well in the end but the development took so long that the strategic picture had completely changed and as has been already noted, they were no longer a good use of resources.

They were never popular with their crews too.

Cheers, Neilster

That I completely agree with, and as deylcros said by the time would have been fully up and running with out problems the strategic reasons had changed and there was no need for them either.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Henk

I wonder if any He-177 survived the war as well. Did any?

Out of the little more than 1000 built there no surviving He-177s today that are known. Several Hundred survived the war and were scrapped and torn apart.

[delcyros]

...actually I know there have been three speciman to survive into the 90´s.
In the mid 90´s they have been excavated somewhere in Norway
in close vicinity to the airfield (stripped off from weapons and electronic eqipment but otherwise buried intact). I do not know where it exactly was, I read an article about this in the 90´s. I do not know, what was done with them either but will find it out.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

That I completely agree with, and as deylcros said by the time would have been fully up and running with out problems the strategic reasons had changed and there was no need for them either.

Agreed, by the time they could of been working efficiently they war would of been over or as you said there would be no need for them because of the defensive situation.

[Henk]

Well a He-219 is a rare WW2 aircraft so I will give them that one. The NASM has a lot of rare aircraft they just need to restore them and it cost money. I just hope they restore the Kikka they have and the HO-229 soon.

[unkated]

Twitch -

The reason that the Ju86P & R versions were not purused was that they were deeveloped as rebuilds frome earlier versions; by 1940, the Ju86 had been out of military production for nearly 2 years. As compared to a Ju88, they were comparatively fragile.

Further, bombing from extremely high altitude was not particularly effective, especially in such low numbers.

Further, the Ju86P found that even at 37,000 ft, they could still be intercepted by RAF fighters after the first few missions by lightened fighters. It did not fly fast enough to avoid danger, whereas the He177 (if its engines did not overheat) could dive across England at 350-400 mph, makling a chase dicey at best.

Uncle Ted

[Henk]

It is actually sad that the He-177 were such a failure and had so much problems. The Ju-89 were a great idea but when Goering came to be head of the Luftwaffe everything went from great to worse.

I agree with you Adler and Neilster and also the Ju-88 was a great aircraft and could do what were expected of it. I would have loved to see the Ju-89 as the heavy bomber for Germany.

[Henk]

Oh yes I forgot about the Dornier 19, that were also a great idea for a heavy bomber.

[merlin]

Sorry guys but some of you missed the point. It was the original requirement by Udet that all bombers had to have the requirement to dive. That added weight (to strengthen it for the pull out), the designers solution was to use coupled engines. Goring in his pig-headedness couldn't admit that the requirement was wrong, and wouldn't allow a four engine version he277. But later when Hitler stated what he wanted (no mention of diving) Heinkel stepped in to say that his He177b (the four-engine cover name) could do that.
But by then it was too late, if the proper realistic requirement was made earlier they would have had a very good aircraft.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Interesting how the German designed 177 look so differant from American bombers. In some ways, British and German bombers look more alike.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i think too much of a big deal is always made about the requirement for the He-177 to dive, i mean the lanc was cleared for dives of up to 30 degrees and that was only set because of bomb clearance out of the bomb bay, it could be greater with a different bomb load and the lanc's structure was strong enough to take it (thanks to the manchester having to be made catapult launchable) so many bombers could dive bomb to some extent, it is not the dive bombing aspect that made the aircraft poor it was the engines..........

[Matt308]

Lanc is right. If there is one Achilles Heel of the 177, it was the engines and transmission coupling. A technical and maintenance nightmare.