He277: Promising? Or further development of a bad apple?

[merlin]

Sorry guys but I think some are missing the point.
The Luftwaffe was obsessed with all bombers having the capability of dive-bombing - even for a large heavy bomber. Heinkel designers had to use the coupled engine arrangement in order to have that capability, but the 'need' also added to the weight of the aircraft. Once the problems arose with the engine arrangement the designers realised (especially with the RAF's four engined planes flying overhead) the solution, but Goring fordade any further mention of the He277. But work went ahead under the label of He177B. Which was given the go ahead by Hitler on May 23, 1943 when Heinkel claimed that it could do what he required. But by then it was too late as in July '44 the whole programme was abandoned. Thankfully this option didn't proceed years earlier!
The He 274 was the responsibility of Heinkel's French design office.

[HealzDevo]

I think the He-177 was a similar issue to the Avro Manchester that was in British Service. The He-177 was too large to be a dive bomber and the coupled engines just started fires and synchronizing problems. The Avro Manchester needed to go from being a two engined bomber to being a four engined bomber. There is very little difference between a late Manchester Bomber and an early Avro Lancaster Bomber... Once these changes were made, the He-277 or He-177b would have given sterling service as a heavy bomber in a somewhat similar category to the B-17 in terms of payload. What do others think?

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it's true, other than the higher command not allowing 4 separate engines there's no reason it couldn't be done and indeed it was done, but the fact remains it'd be too late for such a bomber! range might also suffer due to less space in the wings also.........

[delcyros]

I don´t think there is something wrong with the He-177 A´s payload.

B-17:
max. payload: 5.8t. (12783.2 lbs)

B-24:
max. payload: 5.45t.

B-29:
max. payload: 9.1t.

Lancaster:
max. payload: 6.45t.

He-177A:
max. payload: 7t.
(some planes were modified to handle 8.2t. payload at reduced range)

It seems to me that only the B-29 has a reasonably higher payload.

[Jank]

I thought the B-24 had a greater payload than the B-17.

[HealzDevo]

Interesting statistics and they put it right in the range between Lancaster and B-29. Wouldn't have liked to have seen the B-36 Peacemaker operational as an enemy though... That thing would I reckon have had a payload of between 11.6t and 18.2t just roughly going off that it was twice to three times the size of the B-17 and dwarfed the B-29...

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by delcyros

I don´t think there is something wrong with the He-177 A´s payload.

B-17:
max. payload: 5.8t. (12783.2 lbs)

B-24:
max. payload: 5.45t.

B-29:
max. payload: 9.1t.

Lancaster:
max. payload: 6.45t.

He-177A:
max. payload: 7t.
(some planes were modified to handle 8.2t. payload at reduced range)

It seems to me that only the B-29 has a reasonably higher payload.

The Lancaster could technically carry up to 17,200 lbs on missions less than 800 miles round trip, but I don't think it was ever done, and the extra weight capacity was generally devoted to "Window" rather than bombload. Apart from load testing, the highest weight for a standard Lancaster I've read of was for short range anti-ship missions, with 6 x 2000lbs AP bombs and 6 x 500lbs GP bombs (which had a CTW of around 25% and actually made very good AP bombs as well). The general standard maximum loadout was 14,000 lbs (cookie and area bombing or incendiary loards both max out at 14,000 lbs)

The "Special" Lancasters could carry a single 22,000 lbs Grand Slam bomb.

The Halifax was rated to 13,750 lbs (just a squeak less than the Lancaster).

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Interesting statistics and they put it right in the range between Lancaster and B-29. Wouldn't have liked to have seen the B-36 Peacemaker operational as an enemy though... That thing would I reckon have had a payload of between 11.6t and 18.2t just roughly going off that it was twice to three times the size of the B-17 and dwarfed the B-29...

I don't know. I think the B-36 was just a large target. Wasn't the cruise speed with load less than 200mph? What a fish outta water in the world of jet fighters.

[johnbr]

And the B 36 was very under powered.Remember it was to have 6 7000hp not 3500.

[bigZ]

I think the Pre War economic/material availabity made any atempt of Germany of creating a heavy bomber strategic force impossible. The twin engined bomber approach also makes more sense due to Germanys concerns of being ovrrun by her neighbours before being able to retaliate.

Also it was impossible for Germany to create a large heavy bomber force during the war due to the low output of aircraft early on and the non-stop attrition of the Luftwaffe. When measures had been taken to correct output, the initative had long since shifted to the allies. Also of concern would be where they would have gotten the crews to man them due to their disatrous training policy and the use of instructors in supplying beleagued pockets of troops when the emergency arouse.

At the end of the day its more down to production/economics/material availablity rather than superior technical merits of a heavy bomber which make a heavy bomber force viable.

I too agree on the sentiments of others regarding the V2. Dont forget it also tied up the electronic/instrument industry. Should have concentrated on promising anti aircraft missiles. Although the V1 was effective in tying up RAF resources that could be better used else where and it didn't effect production of aircraft much.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by Matt308

I don't know. I think the B-36 was just a large target. Wasn't the cruise speed with load less than 200mph? What a fish outta water in the world of jet fighters.

yes she was but what other means of delivery to another continent were around at the time? she was the only option of reaching moscow from America and with the type of bomb we're talking here only one needs to get through......

[HealzDevo]

It is the ultimate in nuclear diplomacy in that it might be able to carry a few nuclear missiles in one mission, to drop on different cities. All you needed even then was a small nuclear bomb to drop on each city as a demonstration piece, due to the Hiroshima and Nagasakie drops that had been carried out at the end of WWII...