Hellcat Vs The Zero

Jank · 02-22-2007, 07:07 PM

"The claim that loss records are frequently inaccurate is now gone, because he has no evidence of it."

Here you go shifting things again. Next you will say that in standard English, "frequently inaccurate" is interchangeable with "not a real result." Whoever claimed that loss records were "frequently inaccurate"? Not I. My argument rests merely on the proposition that loss claims were not reality or a real result as in accurate and without error.

"There is again no contradiction between "approximate" and "real" in the English language."

Nope, no semantics here. Your position distilled down to its core is that "approximate result" is the same as "real result." Your position is that the two are interchangeable. They are not, unless you work for the government. You criticized others for citing inaccurate numbers and in the same breath contrasted it with what you yourself termed the "real result." Now you say "real result" means the same thing as "approximate result."

Well Joe B, I will tell you again that I agree with your characterization of "approximate result" so to the extent that in your mind it means the very same thing as "real result", then in your mind, we don't really disagree.

You certainly act like there is a disagreement though. Have you considered that that might be because you yourself do not really believe that "approximate result" means the same thing as "real result"? Just a thought.

You know very well that actual combat losses which are "real results" can not "really" be known. They can be approximated though. To the extent that they are approximations, they are not actual or real.

I'm tired of restating myself over and over. You are also restating yourself but I would just point out that unlike you, my restatements have been consistent and haven't shifted from "real result" to "approximate result" with an explaination that they mean the same thing and an accusation that the other guy is playing semantics.

Jank · 02-22-2007, 07:09 PM

"Have to agree Joe, but there were still some really skilled Japanese in the air when the War ended..."

Yes, the articles on the 318th and 507th I linked to point that out.

FLYBOYJ · 02-22-2007, 07:32 PM

Dan and Jank, agree....

syscom3 · 02-22-2007, 08:19 PM

Flyboy and Les...... I suspect that since there were few quality Japanese pilots left towards the end of the war, more than one Allied pilot saw a fighter and thought the pilot was going to be a rookie and an easy kill.

Lo and behold, the fighter has a good pilot and ends up smoking the allied pilot.

FLYBOYJ · 02-22-2007, 08:23 PM

I could agree - more the exception of the rule, but it sure did happen...

lesofprimus · 02-22-2007, 08:54 PM

My Grandfather told a similar tale Sys...

He and his section jumped 3 Zekes, one of which was smoking... The inital bounce got my Grandfather his fourth kill, but that Japahexe leader ended up putting holes in 3 of the 4 Corsairs.... Grandpa said that was the best Japanese he ever met... Easy kjill my @ss...

What amazed him was how fast they went from being on the offensive to the defensive...

Soren · 02-22-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

What amazed him was how fast they went from being on the offensive to the defensive...

The amazing maneuverability of Japanese fighters attributed mostly to this fact.

If you didn't get your bounce right the first time then you'd better get your ass out of the way fast or those Japanese fighters will have their guns on you in the blink of an eye... and some Japanese fighters mounted 4x20mm guns so ahead of them wouldn't be a very pleasant place to be !

Jank · 02-23-2007, 11:09 PM

I happened to come across some "evidence" that recorded losses, as opposed to claimed kills, were not 100% accurate, not "reality" nor "real results." I would also point out that it was you who sought to include the Korean conflict as illustrative of the fact that kill claims cannot be trusted and that loss claims are reality and real results.

You said, "My personal favorite, that's inspired me to research it, is MiG-15 v F-86 in Korea; 10:1 according to the US side, 3:1 according to the Soviets, *in the opposite direction*. If you take the approach, "oh well you can poke holes in anything but...let's just ignore that and use the claims" you get opposite results. One of those numbers has to be wrong, and of course in reality both are."

Later, you went on to state:

"*Authors* have fudged loss results, for entertainment of others and not just boring debate, here's an example:
Russian Aces of the Korean War
'real' score of top Soviet ace in Korea w/ author fudging what US loss records say
Korean War Ace Sutyagin's Score
real score based on what the records actually say"

DO YOU KNOW WHO MADE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT JoeB?

"In general if planes didn't make it back to base after being shot by MiG's, sometimes even if just ran out of fuel after MiG combat, they were counted lost in air combat. Some wheels down landing writeoffs were even counted lost."

The above statement, if true, would appear to establish that claimed losses were inaccurate, not reality and not a real result. At the very least, a person accepting the above as true would certainly not cite claimed losses as an example of "reality, real result" in criticizing others for citing kill claims for their inaccuracy.

HAVE YOU GUESSED WHO MADE THAT STATEMENT?
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-= It was JoeB on the Kill Ratios Thread of "The Great Planes" Forum on April 29, 2004 @ 4:33pm =-

lesofprimus · 02-23-2007, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

The amazing maneuverability of Japanese fighters attributed mostly to this fact.

While this is usually the fact, Grandpa said of this engagement that whoever was flying that Zeke (and his wingman) knew what they were doing.... No other Japanese pilot got on his tail during the whole War, and this guy did it twice, and left 20something holes in his F4U for his effort...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jank

HAVE YOU GUESSED WHO MADE THAT STATEMENT?
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-= It was JoeB on the Kill Ratios Thread of "The Great Planes" Forum on April 29, 2004 @ 4:33pm =-

Soren · 02-24-2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

While this is usually the fact, Grandpa said of this engagement that whoever was flying that Zeke (and his wingman) knew what they were doing.... No other Japanese pilot got on his tail during the whole War, and this guy did it twice, and left 20something holes in his F4U for his effort...

Did he enter a dogfight with the Zeke pilot ?

lesofprimus · 02-24-2007, 02:11 AM

No, after the bounce and the smoker in flames, the Japanese acted very aggressively and forced them into a dogfight that, when ur at 2:1 odds against an supposedly inferior opponent, he thought they could easily handle...

The leader was very good...

Soren · 02-24-2007, 02:18 AM

That must have been a very good Zeke pilot indeed, forcing 4 Corsair's to go on the defensive.

Do you remember which year this happened ?

lesofprimus · 02-24-2007, 02:49 AM

September 1943, and it was the leader and his wingman.....

renrich · 02-24-2007, 11:56 AM

lesofprimus, What a treasure to have a grandfather with the experiences of your's. If he is still with us I hope you will get down in writing or by recording everything you possibly can about his memories. I had 2 uncles who were gunner's mates on Chicago and Salt Lake City when the war began and they served on those CAs during the worst of the fighting in the Pacific. Alas, I did not get down in writing any of their sea stories and only have my memories of their conversations and really never made a concerted effort to interview them.

JoeB · 02-24-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jank

"In general if planes didn't make it back to base after being shot by MiG's, sometimes even if just ran out of fuel after MiG combat, they were counted lost in air combat. Some wheels down landing writeoffs were even counted lost."

HAVE YOU GUESSED WHO MADE THAT STATEMENT?

Now you've flipped your argument around 180 degrees in addition to using sophistry. We've gone over several times how loss records have the benefit of basic observable real facts: how many friendly planes came back and how many didn't. Everybody on the "friendly" side could see it, anyone could check it later on by walking out to the flight line. Only deliberate falsification or book keeping errors could obscure it and the latter only slightly in any realistic case. We've also covered several times how it's your semantic error to equate "essential reality" with "flawless exactitude". The exact causes of loss, or classification of unrepairable planes could be uncertain, I've said it several times from the beginning. But whether a plane returned was a real fact which there's no evidence that any keepers of secret records in any AF in the WWII era systematically mistated in their own secret records.

Whether claimed planes really went down, and didn't represent duplications of other claims, was simply not a fact available to claimants, it was their and perhaps wingmen's perception of a split second. It couldn't be checked later. Intel people trying to deconflict overlapping claims had to basically guess. The highly variable and often large discrepancies between claims and which planes really returned consistently and clearly shows that. Claimed results weren't based on objectively observable and checkable, ie real, facts, loss records were. It doesn't mean claims can't coincidentally come out correct, and it doesn't mean loss records are invariably exact and infallible. It means what it says, what I've consistently said.

Your 180 flip-flop is that before "you'd read" that loss records often *understated* losses. Now you're quoting me (out of context) supposedly suggesting US non-combat losses in Korea were seriously *overstated*.

The context, within another (better quality I'd have to say) debate on real and claimed kill ratio's, is a refutation of the internet factoid that US "claimed losses" in Korea were actually a serious understatement. Which may be "what you've read" though you refused to elaborate on that statement, give any example, but won't just admit "OK I don't know where I got that from" either.
THE GREAT PLANES Community - Kill ratios
But I already covered those stats here, there's no "gotcha". The USAF official total of F-86 air combat losses in Korea was 78, the correct number appears to be 85-90, some mistakes in each direction, a few cases uncertain (never said there wasn't, that's your invention). And the question whether damaged unrepaired planes should count, which is also a handful of F-86's in Korea (but which were obviously not claimed as "made it back to base but not repaired" by the MiG's). Slight variations based on the recording and interpertation of real checkable (by the recorders) facts.

So there's still the large hole in your original argument of lack of any documented real case where loss records are seriously at variance with the knowable real facts they recorded, compared to claims which were almost *always* seriously at variance with the real facts; because total claims weren't real facts at all, but individual non checkable impressions, w/ guesstimates to deconflict them and get a total.

Joe