Highest Scoring Airframe?

[juhaerik]

Hi everybody,

I believe Dortenmann flew his Dora (3rd production) from September '44 to the end achieving a number of victories during that time...

 

[parsifal]

I dont think they will win this contest, but ive always admired the zero pilots in the early part of the war. A force of about 100 destroyed somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 allied aircraft in 4 months. It is not enough to win this record, but it is still worth an honourable mention I think.

 

[Timppa]

The Finn records on the other hand are pretty convincing evidence.

Why do you think that ?

 

[Colin1]

Hi everybody,

I believe Dortenmann flew his Dora (3rd production) from September '44 to the end achieving a number of victories during that time...

Hmm
are you juhaerik, son of juha?

Your post doesn't really shed a great deal of light on the issue, a good number of kill-scoring pilots 'achieved a number of victories' on a particular airframe; we're trying to resolve who achieved the most.

 

[claidemore]

Why do you think that ?

Because the Finnish victories are checked against Soviet loss records.

 

[The Basket]

Emil Lang holds the record for kills in a day.

 

[Wayne Little]

Emil Lang holds the record for kills in a day.

That may be true.....but it doesn't provide the answer to the original question...

 

[VG-33]

Because the Finnish victories are checked against Soviet loss records.

The link your gave is confirmed victories from Finish side to their own pilots, not by soviet archives.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/scores.htm

For instance on spetember 1941, the 17th, the 24LLeV was harshly opposed to 14 MiG-3 of the 179 IAP. Finish pilots claimed (and obtained) 7 victories, in fact neither side suffering losses.



17.09.41 LeLv 24 Alho, M.A. BW-383 1.00 MiG-3 Okay / in fact NOK=0

17.09.41 LeLv 24 Dahl, J. BW-393 1.00 MiG-3 Okay/ 0

17.09.41 LeLv 24 Ikonen, S.H. BW-386 1.00 MiG-3 Okay/ 0

17.09.41 LeLv 24 Korhonen, A. BW-387 1.00 MiG-3 Okay/ 0

17.09.41 LeLv 24 Torronen, I.V.S. BW-385 2.00 MiG-3 Okay/0

I don't know who claimed the last MiG.

So high 6 - 7/0 overclaim = infinite


Some Finish claims (confirmed or not) are validated by soviet archives, some are clearly invalidated (no losses at all that day, that place), some are with unknown (not verified on russian archives yet) or uncertain status (might by shooted by fighters, might not..)

Regards

 

[Timppa]

Because the Finnish victories are checked against Soviet loss records.

I don't know who wrote that Wikipedia article, but I cross-checked the victories of BW-364 from two sources:
- Keskinen, Stenman: Ilmavoitot (Aerial victories), parts 1 and 2, (published 2006)
- Keskinen, Stenman: Brewster Model 239, part 2 (2005)

The following victories are confirmed by Russian sources:

Pilot		Date	Type	Soviet unit
Juutilainen		21.07.41	I-153	7 IAP
Juutilainen		12.08.41	2xI-153	65 ShAP
Juutilainen		26.09.41	I-153	65 ShAP
Juutilainen		28.03.42	2xI-153	11 AP,KBF
Juutilainen		25.06.42	Hurricane	152 IAP
Salovaara		20.05.43	Yak-1	21 IAP,KBF
Teromaa		09.06.44	Il-4	836 BAP
Teromaa		10.06.44	Il-4	55 BAP
Teromaa		14.06.44	Il-4	455 AP
Teromaa		18.06.44	La-5	159 IAP
Helenius		14.07.44	Yak-9	14 GIAP

Total of 13 planes. The official credit was 37 planes for this airframe

The research of Soviet side have been made by C-F. Geust, Mikhail Bykov, Oleg Kiselev and Andrey Mikhailov in archives:
- in Podolsk (TsAMO, some 70 km south of Moscow) for Red Army and VVS documents, and
- in Gatchina (TsVMA, with branch in Tushino/Moscow) for naval and navy AF documents.

 

[Juha]

Hello Timppa, thanks for your effort in clarifying the real kills achieved by pilots flying BW-364. A couple extra pieces of info.
According to Suomen Ilmavoimat III 1941 (2007)
on 26.9.41 Brewster pilots claimed 7 I-153s 10.15-11.30, of which "Illu" Juutilainen claimed one and 65 ShAP lost 3 but Juutilainen claimed also an I-16 and an I-152 around 11.30 and 65 ShAP lost also 2 I-152s, the other was claimed by "Larppa" Nissinen. So it seems that the sure kill on 26.9. was a I-152.

And according to Suomen Ilmavoimat IV 1942 (2007) on 13.8.42 Illu shot down a lone Pe-2 of 73 AP, KBF near lighthouse of Tolbukhin/Tölli.

Juha

Ps To others, there are also some other possible kills achieved by Juutilainen while flying BW-364 but those claims were made during big dogfights during which there was a lot of overclaiming so it is not possible to acertain which Finnish pilots shot down those Soviet planes which were lost.

 

[Timppa]

Just finished reading a biography of German night fighter ace Paul Zorner ("Nächte im Bomberstrom - Erinnerungen 1920-1950").
He mentions that he got 43 victories with a single airframe, Bf110-G4