History Channel Dogfights

[Soren]

Some of you guys have probably already seen this show a couple of times before, but here's three good episodes about WW2:


YouTube - Dogfights: P-51: Don Bryan is a stud
YouTube - Dogfights: P-51: Richard Candelaria

Both manage to escape by flick stalling. Amazing how Richard Candelaria in his flick stalls, spins and manages to hit the 109 when it overshoots!

Super human Fw-190 pilot, or...
YouTube - Dogfights: No room for error: Art Friedler - Part 1 of 2
YouTube - Dogfights: No room for error: Art Friedler - Part 2 of 2

Me-262 encounter:
YouTube - Dofgights: P-51-Richard Candelaria goes Koeben Pickle Style

Enjoy!

[Thorlifter]

I hadn't seen the 262 encounter before. Damn, that's a sweet looking plane. Thanks for the post Soren.

[Erich]

wonder who the Me 262's were....KG 51 probably. Art's battle sequences are not correct, have talked with him at length about his groups mission this date against Fw's of II.Sturm/JG 300 which did not have that type of formation nor that many Fw's in action on the July date.

D.Bryans sequence is pretty wild and he is a great guy to interview, I should post up my conversation again with him about his Ar 234 kill going after the jet near the Remagen bridge, what a character ! ....... typical pilot jock

[model299]

Originally Posted by Erich

wonder who the Me 262's were....KG 51 probably. Art's battle sequences are not correct, have talked with him at length about his groups mission this date against Fw's of II.Sturm/JG 300 which did not have that type of formation nor that many Fw's in action on the July date.

So the eight by eight formation is an "exaggeration" by the show's writers? Still, thanks for posting the links Soren!

[Erich]

none of the 3 Sturm Fw gruppen ever flew in formation like that, they flew up to 15 in line across and each staffel, 3 of them flew a wee bit higher than the lead element and slightly behind, the attack on the bombers on the July date was 20 heavy Fw 190A's. what Art saw from his advantage point along with 19 other P-51's of the 325th fg, was a Gefechtsverband of Fw 190's low and in the lead followed higher up by Bf 109G-6 protection gruppe. So it appeared to be a big mass of movement towards the B-17's of which at least 9 were shot down, some 9 Fw 190A's were lost to the P-51's as only 11 returned to their A/F.

[Soren]

Roger that Erich.

Candelaria also strikes me as an interesting and warm character, ever had any chance to talk to him ?

[Udet]

While i have not seen these History Channel productions i bet my money all they are about is USAAF pilots -and RAF perhaps- shooting down Germans and Japanese at will...if you see one where Luftwaffe veterans are interviewed showing graphics of their 109s, 190s or Me 262s shooting down USAAF/RAF fighters please let me know.

[Soren]

Well it's still interesting. Would be nice with some German pilots telling their story as-well, no doubt. But the episodes I linked aren't far off, ofcourse numbers are exaggerated a few times, but these are first hand accounts from real pilots, and on these occasions they sure didn't get all their kills easy, often being closer to being shot down themselves. That having been said I've seen other episodes much less accurately told or explained...

One more, in two bits - was this -47 jock in luck or what ??!:
YouTube - Dogfights: " Thunderbolt " 1/5
YouTube - Dogfights: " Thunderbolt " 2/5

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by Udet

While i have not seen these History Channel productions i bet my money all they are about is USAAF pilots -and RAF perhaps- shooting down Germans and Japanese at will...if you see one where Luftwaffe veterans are interviewed showing graphics of their 109s, 190s or Me 262s shooting down USAAF/RAF fighters please let me know.

For the most part you are correct but you shouldn't be dissuaded from watching the show. The History Channel has to pay the bills and the general population doesn't want to see the bad guys lose.

Unfortunately for you, you know better.

Just let go and enjoy the show... even better, buy the DVDs... While the majority of the material is focused on Americans. The stories they have to tell are worth hearing.

.

[Soren]

It's just a shame no tv docs are made about the German pilots, they did after-all see the most fighting and scored the most kills of all.

[Erich]

because there is not enough first hand coverage via films let alone be able to first hand interview them under camera, most of them do not want that type of interview anyway. Soren no I have not been able to interview that 15th AF fg veteran. I must say that Art was happy to get the actions from the historical point of view correct, that was long after the H.C. came to have him interviewed for his sotry

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

none of the 3 Sturm Fw gruppen ever flew in formation like that, they flew up to 15 in line across and each staffel, 3 of them flew a wee bit higher than the lead element and slightly behind, the attack on the bombers on the July date was 20 heavy Fw 190A's. what Art saw from his advantage point along with 19 other P-51's of the 325th fg, was a Gefechtsverband of Fw 190's low and in the lead followed higher up by Bf 109G-6 protection gruppe. So it appeared to be a big mass of movement towards the B-17's of which at least 9 were shot down, some 9 Fw 190A's were lost to the P-51's as only 11 returned to their A/F.

Yep, the History Channel is one sided.. Having said that I have yet to find a worse day for the 8th AF FC in which more than 9 US fighters were downed in combat against the LW in the most advantageous circumstances possible - namely dropping out of cloud cover with altitude advantage and speed against the 4th FG strafing on the deck on August 28, 1944 - and they still gave a good account of themselves..

Contrast that against much heavier losses to LW even with altitude and numerical advantage in late 1943-1945

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

It's just a shame no tv docs are made about the German pilots, they did after-all see the most fighting and scored the most kills of all.

I agree whole heartedly, in fact I would love to see Jappanese, Italian, Russian, Finnish, et. al. air combat. While I understand why the emphasis is on US airmen, it still just continues to give the impression that the war was won by US forces alone and all the Axis pilots were just "enemies" (the world in which I grew up). I just think these are great episodes. All we have to do is find someone to dish up the money.

I don't know how I would feel seeing US pilots being shot down. I got a taste of that on the ramming episode, and I kind of felt strangly uncomfortable. I guess there is a bond between airmen of the same forces, even over decades.

[Soren]

I agree with you completely Davparlr. However I must say that I feel the same nomatter what isde the a/c I see shot down is from, the reason being that we're all humans and so there's no difference what country you're from. But in war getting shot at is what you have to expect. Still its always sad & uncomfortable to think about that a guy probably got killed in that a/c you're now watching getting shred to pieces.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

I agree with you completely Davparlr. However I must say that I feel the same nomatter what isde the a/c I see shot down is from, the reason being that we're all humans and so there's no difference what country you're from. But in war getting shot at is what you have to expect. Still its always sad & uncomfortable to think about that a guy probably got killed in that a/c you're now watching getting shred to pieces.

I have to reflect on another story connected to my father - it's necessarily long and I won't tell it now - but essentially he met a lufthansa pilot coming from Rome to Paris Air Show in 1976 when he was VP Marketing for LTV.

Net - the guy he met he actually shot down on Sep 11, 1994 but claimed only 'Damaged'. As they compared notes it turn out that dad killed his flight leader, his wingman and was chewing on this pilot when German flak zero'd him and killed dad's number 4.

The net is that one of the two had a wife and three kids, the other was a newly wed... and the Lufthansa 109 driver that 'got away' was hit in right thigh and arm (missing bone) before he crash landed. If the flak crews had not been there he would have died.

What started the story is that dad said something cute like Jeesusss C Christ - what happened to your arm" and the German pilot snarled - ond of your G------n Mustang pilots did this during WWII!" To which dad allegedly responded "I was one of those 'SOB's - when did it happen?"

He never thought of German pilots being targets ever again. The two stayed in contact until dad passed away three years later. I wish to hell I knew his name but I don't.

I believe the unit was JG 53 but not sure of squadron.

I know of several similar experiences where the opposing pilots not only quit hating the other but became best friends - after all a fighter pilot is pretty much the same no matter what uniform he wore.