How good was Japanese aviation?

[arras]

DerAdlerIstGelandet >>> I was reading it in book about Zero by one american author, I can look at it during weekend and post more next week.

It happened during air battles over Singapore at the begining of war, that may tell more about type of Spitfre.
One Australian pilot which took part in those battles on Brevster Buffalo describe way in which Commonwealth fighters were masacred by Zeros. Then Hurricanes and Spitfires arived and British pilots took them up to repel Japanese attack. They used the same tactic as they used in Europe ...and result was as author predicted another masacre.

Japanese aviation was very advanced during years of ww2 ...on par with other waring sides. Zero was probably the best fighter in the world in time it apeared over China for the firsth time. At the begining of war in Pacific it won control over skyes for Japanese in respectiful way and kept it for firsth 1-2 years. G3M and G4M were also good medium bombers and served well until Zeros maintained control of skyes.

It is not true that Japanese doctrine called for range and maneurability. Japanese armed forces were divided in to army and navy. For navy range was very important and for good reason.
Army on the other hand never builded aircrafts with big range. Army doctrine was oriented against Chinese and Russians on the continent, for that they did not need range ...and that cripled army air forces in conflict over Pacific. Their aircrafts lacked range and pilots navigation training.

Japanese disadvantages in war were thin industrial base which was totaly orientated to weapon production. They had to make their aircrafths using tools imported from abroad because their own industry was not able to produce them.
Another problem was that they spreaded their human and industrial resources in too large area. They were developing too many identical aircraft types or were loosing time on improving old models instedat of developing new ones. If they would concentrate their limited resources they would be probably more succesful.
And the last thing was way they trained pilots and technical personels. They trained small group of elite pilots ...not a good strategy for prolonged conflict.

[arras]

Just interesting site about Imperial Japanese Navy:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm
I was already posting it on this forum, so just in case....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I was not debating it.

[Glider]

Arras. As mentioned by others there were no Spitfires over Singapore. Also the Zero wasn't the best fighter in the war at that time. It appears that way as it was up against hand me downs or obsolete planes.
The nearest plane timeline wise to the Zero was the 190 and there is no doubt which was the best between these two.

[plan_D]

Please don't hold us in suspense, arras. What squadrons used the Spitfire over Singapore?

The Zero was a good fighter - there's no doubt about that - however it had the benefit of surprise and Western ignorance. A Spitfire would easily be able to defeat a Zero if used properly - the Spitfire could just keep up it's pace while the Zero would be left standing. The only decent aspects of a Zero are range, low-speed turning and a decent climb.

The Japanese Army was concentrated on holding the gains in South-East Asia. You'll find that their aircraft were more than adequete for the job against the second priority Allied Air Forces.

[arras]

DerAdlerIstGelandet >> excuse me, second part was not directed on you, I was just describing my opinion about topic in general.

Glider >> Zero appeared in combat earlier than Fw190 and in that time it was the best fighter arircraft in my eyes.

plan_D >> I don't have book at hand. I will ho home this weekend and I'll post more details then

[plan_D]

The Zero and Fw-190 were not far apart in the combat arena. The Zero 21 was only tested over China - it did not fight in large numbers. The real baptism of fire was Pearl Harbour and related incidents in the CBI during the late 1941. The Fw-190 saw it's first combat service in July 1941.

[arras]

Glider >>

It appears that way as it was up against hand me downs or obsolete planes.

P-39, P-40 and Wildcat were firsth line aircrafths in US navy and army. Huricane was second best fighter of Britain. There was Huricane II used in pacific.

plan_D >> Zero was fighting ower China not only "tested".

[plan_D]

It was only tested in China before 1941 - the Zero was an IJN fighter not an IJAAF fighter. The Japanese forces would have been using the Oscar in China, not the Zero.

The P-39 and P-40 were obselete planes. They were poor performers, both of them. The Hurricane was a second hand plane, everything that went to the CBI was second hand from Europe.

Also, stop calling it the 'Pacific' there were two theatres in which the Japanese were fought. There was the China-Burma-India and Pacific Theatre of Operations. They're different theatres.

The Japanese were up against Western ignorance and second-hand equipment. The CBI received the lowest priority of equipment - and second priority in men.

[Glider]

Arras, I don't need to say much as PlanD has it covered.
In Jan 1942 the Hurricane was definately second line. Spit 5's were common and the Spit 9 entered service by May 42. Typhoons were in service and whilst no fighter, in GA it would have been deadly and the Japs wouldn't have caught one very easily. As a bomber destroyer it could have caused significant damage and at low altitude a real handful. Mossies were entering service and how a 320mph Zero is going to catch a Mossie would be interesting to know.
There is no doubt that the Zero was not the best fighter of its time and had it faced the 1st line RAF planes would have struggled.

[arras]

About P-39, P-40 and Wildcat I can just repeat only what I already sad, those were first line fighters during first half of war in Pacific. If you know about different (better) US fighter, pleas let us know, that will be something really new to know -not for me only.
Hurricane was sill used by British in Europe and Africa and I would not call it “second hand aircraft” in 1941.

As for Typhons, Moskitos and Spitfire9 ...that is already at last one and half year away from Pearl Harbor and more than 2 years away from Zero introduction and I am not going to debate it since I was speaking about 1940 and 1941.



As for “testing” Zero in China, I must disagree:

firsth combat flight in China:
on August 19 1940, 12 Zeros escorting bombers to Chunking
firsth battle:
on September 13 1940, 13 Zeros against 27 I-15 and I-16 over Chunking, all Chinese fighters shot down without loos of single Zero.

Until end of 1940 153 A6M were sent to China, destroying 59 Chinese aircrafts in air + 42 on ground without looses.

Before beginning of war in Pacific A6M made 70 combat flights in to Chinese territory with 529 aircrafths. 99 Chinese aircrafths were shot down with 2 Zeros lost to AA fire.

That doesn’t look like “testing”. Japanese started war in Pacific with only 400 Zeros. Mostly A6M2.



About Australian pilot I was little bit wrong so I must correct:

Book is ZERO FIGHTER by Martin Caidin, 1969 (I have translation not original)

It was Gregory Board flying Brewster Buffalo in 21th wing during defence of Singapore. He described hove British pilots in new Hurricanes (not Spitfires) which just arrived on cargo ships from England were all shot down when trying to fight Zeros in European style dogfight.

Later author (Caidin) write: “elite group of Spitfires with veteran pilots from Europe” was sent by British to Asia. In 2 battles 17 from 27 Spitfires were lost against only 2 Zeros. There is no place, time and Spitfire type specified but it was in 1942. He then quote Claire Chennault commenting whole thing as result of bad tactic of RAF pilots, trying to battle Zeros in a way they were used to fight in Europe …so I think it might have been somewhere in China.

[Glider]

Arras
My understanding is that the Zero was ordered into production in July 1940. Pre Production Zero's were in use from August 1940 in China.
At the time of Pearl Harbour only 420 Zero's were active in the Pacific and some units were still flying the A5 waiting to be re equipped.
This tallies with some of the comments your making and mine. Pre production machines in August 1940 in China. During the rest of 1940 the first deliveries would have gone to China because thats where Japan was at war. The I15/I16 may have been worse than the A6, but were a lot better than the A5 and Army machines. Remember that Japan had lost to Russia in Manchuria so knew what they were up against.

However the Navy was still equipping some of its units with Zero's at Pearl Harbour.

As for the comments about Mossies Spits etc I think you may have a misunderstanding re the timeline.

Pearl Harbour December 1941.

In January 1942 105 sqd had Mossies, Spit 5's were common, Typhoons entered service with 56 sqd in Sept 1940
May 1942 Spit 9's entered service.

This is obviously less than 12 - 18 months.

Your comments about the USA aircraft are fair but the USA caught up fast and were very good at amending their tactics to make the best out of their planes.

I mentioned before the similarity with the 190 timeline wise. By Dec 1941 Germany had produced around 500 FW190 which is pretty close to the Zero. As I have said before, in a contest between the 190 and the Zero I would go for the 190 every time.
Can I ask why you would go for the Zero?

PS Caldin was wrong, there were no Spitfires over Singapore.

[plan_D]

About P-39, P-40 and Wildcat I can just repeat only what I already sad, those were first line fighters during first half of war in Pacific. If you know about different (better) US fighter, pleas let us know, that will be something really new to know -not for me only.

"...different (better) US fighter..." The P-38.

Hurricane was sill used by British in Europe and Africa and I would not call it “second hand aircraft” in 1941.

The Hurricane II was still in use in Africa (Not Britain) in 1941 - in Britain it was beginning to be phased out as a frontline fighter. The second-hand Hurricane I was sent to the CBI - they were used and old.

As for Typhons, Moskitos and Spitfire9 ...that is already at last one and half year away from Pearl Harbor and more than 2 years away from Zero introduction and I am not going to debate it since I was speaking about 1940 and 1941.

As Glider stated all well within the timeframe - the Spitfire V was in wide-spread service in 1941 - it did not reach the CBI until 1943.

And as Glider said - the Spitfire did not fight over Singapore. The first Spitfires arrived in India in 1943 - they were Spitfire Vb and Spitfire VIII.

Also, the AVG were in China and India/Burma (retreating from Burma into India, in 1942) - they had one squadron covering Rangoon. The RAF did not operate largely over Chinese lands.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Fighter tactic wise the US was far superior to the Japanese. As some other people have already stated the US was very good at adapting and overcoming in adverse situations.

[Glider]

An error in my previous posting. the Typhoon was in Sept 41 not 40