AviationDiscuss Hungary steps into the breach. in the World War II - Aviation forums; October 1935.
RLM and Daimler-Benz have a nasty dispute over financing for the new Genshagen DB601 engine factory. As a ...
October 1935.
RLM and Daimler-Benz have a nasty dispute over financing for the new Genshagen DB601 engine factory. As a result funding for the engine factory is cut from 50 million RM to 20 million RM. Initial DB601 engine production will be barely adequate for Me-109 and Me-110 aircraft construction. New proposals for DB601 powered aircraft don’t stand a chance for lack of engines.
Point of Departure. 1936.
Most European aircraft designers were enthusiastic about the new DB601 engine. The Hungarian Government decides to bankroll DB601 engine production at Manfred Weiss. This will give Hungary a more substantial munitions industry and perhaps earn some hard currency from foreign sales. Unlike some other manufacturers, Manfred Weiss had the expertise to make a copy of the DB605 that was as good as the original.
The Genshagen facility was designed to produce 220 engines per month using two parallel production lines. Manfred Weiss will produce 110 DB601 engines per month using a single production line.
September 1938.
RLM rejects production of the He-100 fighter aircraft.
The He-100 was designed specifically for the DB601 engine and could not be easily modified to use the more plentiful Jumo 211. Thus the program was historically doomed as soon as the Me-109 entered mass production.
Heinkel exports the He-100.
Historically Heinkel sold 6 He-100 prototypes to the Soviet Union and attempted to export the aircraft to Japan. Obtaining permission for license production in Hungary is simple by comparison. Manfred Weiss produced aircraft as well as engines so they are the natural choice. This will be ILO the He-112B which historically almost entered mass production in Hungary.
1940.
A Hungarian variant of the He-100 enters mass production. About 75 aircraft per month powered by Hungarian built DB601 engines. This aircraft has some unique Hungarian features such as the fast firing Gebauer machinegun. It has a conventional cooling system similar to the Me-109.
Battle of Britain.
Germany regrets decisions to curtail DB601 engine production and to not produce the He-100. Beginning July 1940 they will obtain 50 He-100s per month from Hungary, providing an equal value of tanks, artillery etc. desired by the Hungarian armed forces.
Ford could probably obtain a license for production of the DB601 engine but who will his customers be? FDR didn't like Germany. As long as he remains President I doubt the Ford produced DB601 engine would be considered for American military aircraft. Henry Ford knew this and is therefore unlikely to build a German designed engine.
What "potentially lucrative aircraft engine market" in 1936?
America and the world are still recovering from the depression. The US Military is ordering planes by the dozens, not hundreds. There is no US Market for numbers of military engines for another 2-4 years. And the Navy has about zero interest in liquid cooled engines cutting the military market substantially .
There was little reason for a US company to license a foreign engine in 1936-37. Especially one that was still in development, the DB 601 was not a finished product in 1936. P&W and Wright had the domestic commercial market pretty well sewn up and also owned a good part of the world market. They were licencing other countries/companies to make their engines, not the other way around.
October 1935.
RLM and Daimler-Benz have a nasty dispute over financing for the new Genshagen DB601 engine factory. As a result funding for the engine factory is cut from 50 million RM to 20 million RM. Initial DB601 engine production will be barely adequate for Me-109 and Me-110 aircraft construction. New proposals for DB601 powered aircraft don’t stand a chance for lack of engines.
Point of Departure. 1936.
Most European aircraft designers were enthusiastic about the new DB601 engine.
This is a real point of departure and has entered the realm of flight of fantasy. The DB 600 was not announced to the world until Aug of 1937 at the Zurich air meet. The ONLY "European aircraft designers" who knew about it in 1936 were German ones. The fuel injected DB 601 may have existed in 1937 (it may have been been used at Zurich but it was not announced) but it was only rumored to the British press in Aug/Sept 1937 during/after the meet. A short description and power ratings are in the Sept 2 1937 issue of "Flight" magazine. A "ground boosted" version was rated at 800hp "normal" at 2200rpm, 900hp available for "continuous emergency" operation (30 minutes) and 1000hp at 2400rpm for 5 minutes.
The altitude rated engine was given as 800hp at 13,000ft at 2200rpm with 910hp available for take off. Apparently the variable drive for the supercharger was not announced at this time.
Originally Posted by davebender
September 1938.
RLM rejects production of the He-100 fighter aircraft.
The He-100 was designed specifically for the DB601 engine and could not be easily modified to use the more plentiful Jumo 211. Thus the program was historically doomed as soon as the Me-109 entered mass production.
In reality the He 100 was rejected ( or sidelined) with only 4 machines completed. the 5th machine is not completed until after the RLM decision, this is important because at this time the He 100 is still being designed to use the DB601M engine with the wing surface radiators. The planes were also experiencing landing gear problems, landing gear collapsing while the aircraft was parked.
Originally Posted by davebender
1940.
A Hungarian variant of the He-100 enters mass production. About 75 aircraft per month powered by Hungarian built DB601 engines. This aircraft has some unique Hungarian features such as the fast firing Gebauer machinegun. It has a conventional cooling system similar to the Me-109.
Well there goes a good bit of the He 100 performance. Even the planes sold to Russia had condenser panels in the wing leading edges, wing panels and the Horizontal stabilizer. The Turtle deck and vertical fin contained panels for the oil cooling system. Fitting conventional radiators and oil coolers will increase drag. Fitting the Gebauer machinegun could prove very interesting also. A large part of cowl was actually the engine mount and the engine was slipped in from below the aircraft. Mounting machine gun/s in the cowl may be possible but may require quite a bit of redesign and a possible increase in fuselage depth ( another increase in drag?). In the real He 100 a single machine gun was mounted in each wing root. A version with 2 machineguns in each wing root was talked about and perhaps even mocked up. However the Gebauer machinegun was driven by the engine so some sort of drive system needs to get from the engine to the machine gun/s. the Normal Gebauer machinegun has a fair amount of distance between the barrels More than any normal pair of machine guns at any rate. Weight in one source is given as 42.5kg (?) rather heavy for even a pair of fast firing 7.92mm machine guns.
The HE 100 had 4 fuel tanks in the wings, two each side, they may inter-connect but their are four fuel fillers in the top of the wing. One tank was behind the landing gear, out board of the gun bay. Enlarging the gun bay may encroach on tank space. The other tank is in the rear part of the wing also but located just outboard of the landing gear attachment point and ends about wear the aileron begins. Some aircraft had a 5th tank mounted in the lower fuselage behind the pilots seat. Not much space in the wings with out some major redesign work.
Originally Posted by davebender
Battle of Britain.
Germany regrets decisions to curtail DB601 engine production and to not produce the He-100. Beginning July 1940 they will obtain 50 He-100s per month from Hungary, providing an equal value of tanks, artillery etc. desired by the Hungarian armed forces.
British pilots gleefully buy rounds for the house at the local pub to celebrate easy victories over He 100s. A single .303 hit to the turtle deck or vertical fin may cause enough alcohol loss from the oil cooling system (oil cooler was suspended in an alcohol filled tank behind cockpit. Hot alcohol was circulated though panels in the turtle deck and vertical fin for cooling before returning to ail cooler bath) to cause engine to seize on "deep penetrating" He 100 missions. Lack of 20mm cannon means British armor and self sealing tanks work much better against the He 100s armed only with 7.9mm machine guns. Even two Gebauer machineguns ( two barrels per gun ?) may only give 5200 rpm leaving the 8800rpm (eight guns at 1100rpm each) British fighters an advantage.
The V-6 was fitted with three MG-17 when sold to Russia and I have an Heinkel He100 engineering drawing with a MG-151 fitted to the engine mount. (awaiting permission from source to post)
It is interesting to note that an early model of the He-112 was fitted with a engine mounted MG-17 when the early Bf-109 was fitted with one. The Bf-109 encountered gun cooling problems but the Heinkel engineers found a cooling solution and I wonder if this could have translated to the MG-FF for Heinkel?
With regards to the oil cooler vulnerability, this seems to have gotten the Japanese attention with developing the Ki-64 (and the experimental Ki-61) and them reverted to a conventional oil cooler but kept the engine cooling condensers as this system had better survival characteristics over a conventional radiator system.
Perhaps the Heinkel engineers could have found a solution but we know that the 109 had problems with engine mounted guns until the "F" series. There is a picture of a document in a book on the HE 100 that seems to list a MG 17 firing though the prop hub as well as as a MG131 and the MG151 as alternatives. The HE 100 becomes a much more viable fighter if you could mount a MG 151 in the engine and a mg 131 in each wing root but those guns don't become available until until much later.
I believe at least one plane was testing a MG 151 in Spain in 1938 (?) but that does not mean it was ready for actual service use
It's my understanding Hungary almost put this aircraft into production. If Hungary has a source for DB601 engines I would expect a competition between the He-100 and He-112B. Winner gets the production contract.
Perhaps the Heinkel engineers could have found a solution but we know that the 109 had problems with engine mounted guns until the "F" series. There is a picture of a document in a book on the HE 100 that seems to list a MG 17 firing though the prop hub as well as as a MG131 and the MG151 as alternatives. The HE 100 becomes a much more viable fighter if you could mount a MG 151 in the engine and a mg 131 in each wing root but those guns don't become available until until much later.
I believe at least one plane was testing a MG 151 in Spain in 1938 (?) but that does not mean it was ready for actual service use
The first is the document you referred to from Erwin Hood's book and the second is another document discussing three MG17s into the V-1. A performance spec sheet is included for aircraft V-4 as it indicates two MG-17 and one MG-FF (correct ammo load weight). The engineering drawing shows a MG151 with the ammo box location and the wing root MG17.
It's my understanding Hungary almost put this aircraft into production. If Hungary has a source for DB601 engines I would expect a competition between the He-100 and He-112B. Winner gets the production contract.
In terms of performance and ease of manufacturing the He100 wins hands down over the He112.
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Originally Posted by davebender 
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