Hurricane Mk XII 133 RCAF Squadron

[Crimea_River]

Hey guys.

I'm appealing to the masses for some help to nail down some facts to help with our Hurricane Mk XII restoration. Our Hurricane was built at the Canadian Car and Foundry Company and is known to be s/n 5389 and we strongly believe it was coded "M". We know the service history of the aircraft but need to verify a few things regarding the appearance of the aircraft during its service to begin planning for painting. Here are my questions:

1) I have read that the s/n's may have been painted over at some point for security reasons. Does anyone have references to confirm this?
2) What were the exact colours the Canadian Car and Foundry used in the camouflage paint? The colours appear to replicate Dark Green/Dark Earth but we need to know if there were Canadian or FS standard equivalents that were used instead. We also need to veirfy the underside colour.
3) Need to verify that the camouflage scheme replicated the British A or B scheme.
4) We have limited pictures of 133 squadron Hurris and probably have anything available on the net. If anyone has photos in books or in their possession, I'd appreciate a PM so I can get them via e-mail.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[fubar57]

Just got in camp Andy. Pretty sure someone should dig something up for you, if not, I have about 20ish books dedicated to the Hurricane and I'll start looking when I get home wednesday morning.



Geo

 

[Crimea_River]

Thanks Geo. I knew you would chime in and I appreciate that. 133 Squadron is pretty lean on pics though.

 

[fubar57]

Been through a dozen or so books Andy and no luck on your aircraft. From what I've seen of other aircraft built at the Canadian Car and Foundry Company, they seem to follow the "A" scheme. The few aircraft photos I've seen all show serial numbers but this could be before they reached a squadron as none show squadron codes. Flightdecs does a sheet on Canadian built aircraft and they list RAF colors. Maybe you could check with them and see what they referenced or if it was just a guess. I emailed you a page out of a book. The print isn't of any use but the aircraft is one serial number below yours.


Geo

 

[Airframes]

The 'A' and 'B' scheme system was supposedly dropped, from memory, in late 1941, with fighter aircraft then being finished in a standard pattern, based on the 'A' scheme. However, it was still possible to see exceptions to this 'rule'.
All I've been able to find regarding paint finish, is that the Canadian Hurricanes were finished in RAF colours, but that it was unlikely that the paints were exported from the UK to Canada.
If the paints, presumably the same as used on other Canadian-built 'British' aircraft, weren't from Canadian production sources ( and I have no idea of paint production in Canada), it's possible that they might have been American 'equivalent colours', mainly manufactured by Du Pont, I believe.

 

[fubar57]

Good memory Terry. I have January as to when the change over was given though of course, this took time to implement. One thing I learned from searching was that the A pattern for Hurricanes was odd serials and for Spitfires it was even serials.



Geo

 

[Milosh]

List of serial numbers for CC&F Hurricanes,
Serial Numbers Database

some have photos

 

[Crimea_River]

....but our doesn't, unsurprisingly.

Gentlemen, I very much appreciate your inputs. I've studied many photos and agree with George that the pattern is most likely the "A scheme" and using Dark Earth/Dark Green or equivalents. I have the Flightdecs sheet that Geo refers to and will follow up on any references they might have used. Here are a few interesting photos I've been able to find on the net:

 

[rochie]

Why no spinners ?

 

[Crimea_River]

Packard Merlin splined for Hamilton Standard props. The standard spinner did not fit over the HS hub.

You've now touched on the next bit of investigation that I'm doing as I'm investigating whether or not such examples made it to the RAF and what they might have done to the spinners. It seems modern flying examples, many if not most of which are Mk XIIs, had custom spinners made that are more elongated than typical Mk II spinners. Like this one:

..and this one. Compare with the one in the background.

 

[rochie]

Packard Merlin splined for Hamilton Standard props. The standard spinner did not fit over the HS hub.

You've now touched on the next bit of investigation that I'm doing as I'm investigating whether or not such examples made it to the RAF and what they might have done to the spinners. It seems modern flying examples, many if not most of which are Mk XIIs, had custom spinners made that are more elongated than typical Mk II spinners. Like this one:

View attachment 299034

..and this one. Compare with the one in the background.

View attachment 299035

Thank you Sir.

Did this impact on performance any ?

 

[fubar57]

Dang Andy. I believe one of the books has the destinations for the CCFC made aircraft though I think most stayed in Canada. I also just read online that some of the aircraft had "Canadian" made spinners. Off I go....................................




Geo

 

[Crimea_River]

I have seen those reproduced Geo so don't get brain strain. I'm compiling a summary of findings as we speak. Canadian made spinner info would be good though.

 

[fubar57]

Nothing in my books about the identity of the "Canadian" made spinner. I've found one site that mentions some of the aircraft were fitted with a Hamilton spinner, no luck finding that either. There is also a discussion on spinners here...Hawker Hurricane, propellers and spinners, a modellers guide - WWII - Britmodeller.com



Geo

Mention of the Hamilton spinner here....Italieri 1/48 Hawker Hurricane MK1. 303 squadron (Polish) Flg Off W Urbanoviocz , RAF northolt 1940 | Page 2 | Scale Models Forum

 

[Crimea_River]

Geo, thanks. The Britmodeler link is one that I came across already in my travels and is about the best discussion I've seen on the subject.

 

[Milosh]

To go OT, the head engineer at CC&F at the time was a woman whose had the nickname Queen of the Hurricanes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_MacGill

 

[Crimea_River]

Yep. Part of the mandate of our restoration society is to educate so along with the restoration, we are producing a set of videos that will be available to everyone for viewing. One of the chapters is on Elsie MacGill.