Interceptor vs Escort.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Heres one figure for the "D" Mustang
Combat range with drop tanks is 2055 miles @ 280 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 7.3 hours.

Combat range without drop tanks is 1155 miles @ 295 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 3.9 Hours.

Considering that the Distance from London to Berlin is only 580 miles, the P51D had to have quite some loiter time. (Misison profile would be Fly in with drop tanks, loiter for awhile and return home on internal fuel)

If someone has another figure, please let me know.

Those numbers are close enough. Info I got from a couple of P-51 pilots was that they tried to run about 55 gph in cruise. Remember METO throttle was 97 gph and WEP was even more which cuts your time drasticaly. High throttle situations were also on internal fuel which was about 240 gal max usable. Combat radius charts in the ETO generaly list the P-51D, with drop tanks, at 650mi to allow climb, cruise, combat and return. In the Pacific where enemy contact is likely only over the target, ranges of 850mi radius are sometimes used.

As someone pointed out loitering was rarely used mission profiles were more like this. Form up, climb out, link up with the proper bomber box, escort to relief point, decend to 10,000ft (or below cloud level) for the return and attack any targets of opertunity.

wmaxt

[syscom3]

I was just figuring out a hypothertical scenario where the P51's would just fly over to where the German Airfields were and just loiter, waiting for the -109's and -190's to take off, and then pounce on them. If it means only to just mess up their formations and make them waste precious time and fuel, then thats just as good. They might not have the time or fuel to make an effective intercept.

Perhaps they could even have an escort of their own till on station, so they could use the drop tanks to best effect.

It looks like the P51's could simply out wait them.

[Erich]

remember during late 44 and all of 45, German piston jobs were warned by airfield ground control to take another airfield after intercpets of heavy bombers as Mustangs were lurking over the fields. It's a very safe bet this of course altered the course of a second attack, but the Mustangs could not be everywhere at once and there were many small airfields of which the German props could land. the one thing that stands out is the way the 262's were hunted down whether on take off or landing, these jet units just didn't seem to be thinking pushing the boys to the limit

[syscom3]

Good points.

Im curious though how many German fighter groups couldnt get into the air cause there were so many allied fighters in the air lurking around, it would have been suicidal. Or, there was a fighter bomber stike that hit the field at just the right time and holed the airfield.

[lesofprimus]

Usually the Luftwaffe pilots were already up in the air prior to the Allied fighter sweeps, atleast those that had the fuel to get into the air...

[Erich]

Italked with several German pilots about this syscom.....and I am paraphrasing this so to speak. the German radar/ground units were very powerful and indeed even in within Germany could pick up signals and I know this is not the right word but i will use it just the same from the US heavies as well as the US fighters all over England. Once in the air the Luftwaffe ground control gave numbered estimates of the opposition to the fighter gruppen to get airborne to confront the US air forces, so all available fighters ~ prop and jet were then ushered into the air to meet the onslaught.

what was taken out on the ground were already damaged, salvaged fighters and towards wars end fighters without fuel causing gapping holes in the fuselages of the German Luftwaffe single engines but no fires...a bit frustrating for P-47/P-51 pilots

[evangilder]

I have actually seen some ground strafing gun cam films with the scenario. They are shooting away and you see them walk the bullets right on up to the airplane and there is no fire or explosion. My first thought was that they were decoys. Then one of the other guys brought up what you are saying..no fuel to burn or explode.

[syscom3]

The German radar and ground control was excellent. But if the -109 only had 50 minutes of fuel, it only had a limited window of opportunity to get up to altitude and intercept. I would figure almost 20 minutes of the endurance would just be to get up to 30,000 feet and have enough fuel to get down. Thats where my hypothesis starts, that some of the airfields could get blanketed so nothing leaves the ground without being intercepted. Of course not all the fields can get covered, but if a few groups are held down, and cant form up to intercept, then thats a couple of groups not doing any damage.

Just "conjecture/what if" on my part.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The German radar and ground control was excellent. But if the -109 only had 50 minutes of fuel, it only had a limited window of opportunity to get up to altitude and intercept. I would figure almost 20 minutes of the endurance would just be to get up to 30,000 feet and have enough fuel to get down. Thats where my hypothesis starts, that some of the airfields could get blanketed so nothing leaves the ground without being intercepted. Of course not all the fields can get covered, but if a few groups are held down, and cant form up to intercept, then thats a couple of groups not doing any damage.

Just "conjecture/what if" on my part.

Is that 50 minutes on internal fuel only or including drop tanks? It seems to me that with a single large drop tank a 109 could extend that time by at least 50%, even if they burnt the drop tank fuel just in the takeoff and climb peirod.

Even for a short legged interceptor like the 109, 50 minutes seems really limited.

[plan_D]

I'm in the understanding that Allied aircraft loitered over the battlefield in support of the ground forces. The ground forces would call in air support and the aircraft would be there in a matter of minutes. This would be done by the RAF and USAAF.

Of course, in the escort mission profiles it would be different. The escorts would only drop down after finishing the mission at hand.

[lesofprimus]

That 50 minutes is without drop tanks....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I thought it was more like 1.5 hours for the 109. How else did it get to England and have 20 minutes over the target and then still get back to Germany during the Battle of Britain. I may be wrong though, that is why I am throwing this out. If it is please correct me.

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I thought it was more like 1.5 hours for the 109. How else did it get to England and have 20 minutes over the target and then still get back to Germany during the Battle of Britain. I may be wrong though, that is why I am throwing this out. If it is please correct me.

Easily since most, if not all the 109s, flew from French airfields during BoB.

Here is some data on the E-1, E-3

SL
max continuous - 2200rpm, speed - 255mph, duration - 1.05hr, range - 267mi
max economy - 1300rpm, speed - 165mph, duration - 2.20hr, range - 404mi

9842ft
max continuous - 2200rpm, speed - 283mph, duration - 1.00hr, range - 280mi
max economy - 1300rpm, speed - 186mph, duration - 2.05hr, range - 404mi

15,404ft
max continuous - 2400rpm, speed - 323mph, duration - 0.55hr, range - 286mi
max economy - 1400rpm, speed - 217mph, duration - 1.50hr, range - 413mi

19,865ft
max continuous - 2400rpm, speed - 310mph, duration - 1.10hr, range - 323mi
max economy - 1600rpm, speed - 224mph, duration - 1.40hr, range - 395mi

ps - you can find LW unit bases here, http://www.ww2.dk/

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Cool thanks for the info.