Interesting P-38 Comments

[Soren]

Stienhoff, commander of the Sardining Luftwaffe contingent. " The lightnings clear superiority in speed and maneuverability was especially disconcerting." This quote is from his book Messerschmits Over Sicily via Planes and Pilots of WWII

Thats not a comment made by Steinhoff wmaxt ! You're purposely twisting the original text from the website ! Only the the quotation marked words are from the book, Steinhoff never said any of the rest.

But to be fair Johannes Steinhoff actually did think of the P-38 as a great fighter, but he never expressed any difficulty in out-turning it, infact only the exact opposite, and he mostly flew gondola equipped 109's (And later the Me262) - but here's what he had to say about the P-38:
"The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. "

The P-38 was a Boom & Zoom fighter, as described by nearly every German pilot who met it in combat, fast in the dive and packing a mean punch but not maneuverable compared to the single engined fighters.

Galland one of the finest fighter pilots ever confirmed that he couldn't shake a P-38 in a Fw-190D. From the book Top Guns by Brennan and Joe Foss.

We've discussed this one before wmaxt, and it was just another one of Gallands jokes. Galland was infact not even present at the place where this incident supposedly occured.

By Adolf Galland:
"P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat. Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true. "

Franz Stiegler JG27 " [P-38s] could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to a climb insitainously. We lost quite a few pilots who tried an attack and then pull up. The P-38s were on them at once. They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down for while the P-38 could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5-10deg of bank". (JohnneyL provided this)

Ha ha ha ! Stigler certainly never said that !

Where is this JhonneyL guy, cause I'd really like to know where he read/heard that ! He obviously hasn't read the other comments made by Stigler about Allied fighters.

Fact is German fighter pilots didn't fear the P-38 at all, it was infact considered no match by most pilots. Only the pilots who flew the heavily armed bomber-destroyers occasionally expressed difficulty fighting the P-38, as it could climb better than they could and always attacked from above.

[Jank]

Soren, as you seem to know quite a bit about how the Germans viewed their adversaries planes, do you have any information about what the Germans thought of the later model P-47's (paddle blade and water injection)?

How about P-51's?

[Soren]

The Thunderbolt was in general considered an inferior fighter by the Germans who described it as sluggish and un-maneuverable, esp. at low alt, but "never try to dive away from a Thunderbolt" the advice was nonetheless. But at high altitudes the Thunderbolt was a force to be reckoned with, esp. by the many pilots flying bomber-destroyers.

The P-51 was a feared aircraft at most altitudes, mostly because of the huge numbers in which appeared, but also because it almost always had a height advantage to begin with, and at high speed it wasn't sluggish in maneuvering compared to the 109, but neither was the P-47 for that matter.

However the P-51 and the P-47 were both considered inferior at low to mid altitude compared to the latest German fighters such as the Fw-190 Dora-9, A-9 and Bf-109 K-4, where'as they were considered completely inferior compared to the Ta 152H-1 and Me262.

But I'll dig out some comments for you Jank, from Hans Werner Lerche amongst others, a German test pilot who flew nearly every captured Allied fighter such as the P-38, P-51 and P-47 etc etc.

[Jank]

Thanks.

I suspect the test was not of the paddle bladed, water injection model. That's relevant as the climb rate increased by 400fpm to a respectable 3,180fpm at S/L.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

It still got Yamamoto. One of the best coup de grâce ever.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

But I'll dig out some comments for you Jank, from Hans Werner Lerche amongst others, a German test pilot who flew nearly every captured Allied fighter such as the P-38, P-51 and P-47 etc etc.

Always be careful about test pilot comments on foreign aircraft, other manufacturer's aircraft, or other service's aircraft. Most of the time, like all pilots, they seek out the negative and put down the positive of competing aircraft. This is why there is such conflicting data.

[Soren]

davparlr,

Actually its very hard to find anything negative written by Hans Werner Lerche on the Allied fighters he tested, he seems to have been focused entirely on the positive.

Jank,

Lerche flew both the D-2 and the later version with paddle blades, I'll get the comments made about both.

I'll be back tomorrow with some comments by him..

[Jank]

The D-2 was a dog.

The paddle blades were first installed in the D-22 production block I believe. They were retrofitted on existing D-10's forward.

I don't think they were commonplace until the Spring of 1944 though.

3,180fpm climb at S/L is pretty respectable for a single engined fighter weighing in at over 14,000lbs.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

davparlr,

Actually its very hard to find anything negative written by Hans Werner Lerche on the Allied fighters he tested, he seems to have been focused entirely on the positive.

..

Then he has my respect. That's why I said most of the time, but not all. Some can be objective.

[wmaxt]

Soren, Opinions are everywhere and the quotes I posted are just as valid as any others maybe more so in these specific cases. I've seen many others along the same vein. Colonel Rau who wrote the long letter to the AAF about symplifing the P-38 and in that letter "My personnel feeling about this airplane is that its a fine piece of equipment, and if properly handled, takes a back seat for nothing the enemy can produce". This theme is consistent in accounts of AAF pilots. The 20th FG ( who didn't really like the P-3 noted "Below 20,000ft the P-38 was better than the German aircraft we encounter but above that only equal"

I did not skew or twist Standoffs comment if it was modified in any way it was done before I read it, as I don't have his book I could not dbl check it there.

Joe Foss has never been accused as a liar and the Galland story was a, witnessed by many and b. confirmed before publication. Galland HATED the P-38, why? He made a point of pitying lesser aircraft and respecting others like the Spitfire of which he got 55. People like Galland save hatred for those he cannot predict or control not those that he can control.

Something that also needs to be taken into consideration here is that the majority of pilots were just airplane drivers. Only 5-10% of pilots accounted for 95% of the kills and ~80% of the kills were some form of bounces where the kill never saw it coming until it was to late on top of that most of the groups that got the P-38 in '43 and early '44 only had a few hours in the 38 and in combat against more experienced German pilots, they probably were sitting ducks!

Another thing about the P-38 is the perceptions and rumors of people not familiar with them. Here is a typical reaction to the P-38:
Robert Cary
"Tony LaVier, the famous Lockheed test pilot came over to Goxhill to demonstrate what the P-38 could do. His demonstration made my Carree as a fighter pilot. I already had tremendous faith in the Lockheed P-38 , but after Tony put on his exhibition, I had full faith and confidence in that airplane... what was so spectacular about it was that I'd heard along the way the P-38 was a killer" "I was never worried for one minutethat if I had to tangle with the Luftwaffe, I was going to be at a disadvantage, because the airplane could just outperform them. It was totally the function of the pilot. Not putting any accolades on my piloting ability, after watching that demonstration by Tony LaVier, I knew I could make the airplane do it".
P-38 Lightning Pilot Briefs: Robert Carey

Many of the same issues affected the Luftwaffe, inexperienced pilots were easier targets no matter what they flew and good aggressive pilots got the scores.

BTW: I know the Germans had some very capable aircraft esp in late '44-'45 and just as those reports concerning the P-38s speed don't count because we don't have them therefore don't know the particulars affecting them, I just want the same level of proof for the German aircraft plus evidence that the required support was available. Some things that I've seen on other forums include rampant engine problems and supply issues for special fuels. Some site on the 190D for instance report the 2400hp at sea level was down to 2,000 by 10,000ft. The report added to the test reports at Spitfireperformance indicate the engines were rated at 1,900hp and not 2,140 or 2,400hp. Is that really unreasonable?

wmaxt

[syscom3]

Theres also the issue of the 8th AF P38 groups being required to provide close escort for the bombers and not go on sweeps.

The kill ratio of the P38's would have been far higher if they werent tied down in that role.

[Soren]

The comments on the P-47 by Hans Werner Lerche as promised:

The P-47D-2 in November 1943:
"The Thunderbolt was rather lame and sluggish near the ground level, with a maximum speed scarcely over 500 km/h (310 mph). But its real performance potential was soon revealed, and I was astonished to note how lively the Thunderbolt became at higher altitudes. Thanks to its excellent exhaust-driven turbo-supercharger this American fighter climbed to 11,000m (36,000 ft) with ease, and its maximum speed at about 9000m (29,500 ft) was approximately 640 km/h (400 mph). " -

P-47D-10 in May 1944:
"Except for the extra 300 hp provided by the water injection, this new P-47D Thunderbolt variant did not feature any fundamental innovations compared to the version I had already tested and evaluated" - Lerche reached 697 km/h (433 mph) in this a/c.

The P-47D in General:
"One thing was certain: the strong points of the Thunderbolt did not lie in dog-fighting or at heights under 5-6000m (14,600-19,700 ft). It was excellent in higher altitudes, in diving attacks and flying with maximum boost. No wonder then that the Thunderbolts were always the decisive factor as escort fighters for bomber attacls at high altitudes, their numerical superiority also putting them in a favourable position, of course. What the Thunderbolt lacked was good performance at lower altitudes"

Worthy of note is that Lerche hardly flew any German single engined fighters, although he did fly many other types of German a/c.

German single engined fighters flow by Lerche:
Bf-109 F-4
Bf-109 G-2
FW-190 A-8