Italian Ace and rumors

cheddar cheese · 01-26-2006, 01:42 PM

I have read about that before somewhere...

But theres no way Italian pilots were cowards. They done the best they could with the equipment and resources they had...

evangilder · 01-26-2006, 02:29 PM

You're right CC. It takes a certain amount of courage to step into any military vehicle as they are always built by the lowest bidder!

KraziKanuK · 01-26-2006, 02:38 PM

If you want to know about Italian aces get the Osprey Aces book # 34.

Don't take it as gospel for the Osprey Aces books have errors but will give you an insight.

Hunter368 · 01-26-2006, 02:42 PM

Here how I rate them after reading a fair bit about them:

1-Great pilots
2-Brave
3-Not great planes, for the most part. (later in the war they got better)
4-Poor tatics
5-Great pilots
6-Very brave

Just my opinion.

rebel8303 · 01-26-2006, 04:07 PM

When it goes to war I don't think that you can name someone coward anyways. One might not do a heroic act but it sure tha he'll be more courageous and brave than when in peaceful times. After all it is a matter of life and death.
Finally I don't think I can judge of one's act on a situation I have never been myself.

Hunter368 · 01-26-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel8303

When it goes to war I don't think that you can name someone coward anyways. One might not do a heroic act but it sure tha he'll be more courageous and brave than when in peaceful times. After all it is a matter of life and death.
Finally I don't think I can judge of one's act on a situation I have never been myself.

Wise words. Nicely put.

Jank · 01-26-2006, 09:36 PM

Magister, I hav that book. I read that passage last night. Must have been interesting fighting the germans and eyeties in the same engagment.

Parmigiano · 01-30-2006, 12:14 PM

Probably the best english recent book about the pilots of Regia is 1998 Chris Dunning's 'Courage Alone' (.. the name says everything) , Hikoki Pubblications.

Unfortunately it seems out of print, Amazon wants $500 for a copy!

Twitch · 02-04-2006, 04:44 PM

I have a list of all the victories scored by Italians in WW2, not just aces. It's probably too long to post here but I'll email it to anyone who wants it.

My talks with American aces regarding the Italians was generally not with too much praise. As one put it quite matter-of-factly, "They'd come out and show off doing aerobatics and we'd shoot then down." Shrug.

That's not to say there weren't some pilots that excelled.

Parmigiano · 02-04-2006, 09:56 PM

Very macho statement, but from the other side the bell rings differently...

From an interview to italian ace Luigi Gorrini:

"Cimicchi, medaglia d'oro dell'aeronautica del sud, mi disse:"Gigi, io ero al sud, ma con il cuore stavo con voi e con me tanti altri! Voi non sapete veramente quanti aeroplani avete abbattuto: io li contavo quando partivano e li contavo al ritorno, lavoravo con un maggiore che comandava un gruppo di Lighting. Quando si trattava di andare contro i Tedeschi passava, ma quando sapevano che vi avrebbero incontrato, molti tiravano dietro il sedere sulla sedia...Ci credevano belve, persone disposte a tutto.. "

"Cimicchi, a gold medal of South Air Force, told me 'Luigi, I was in the south but my heart was with you guys. You don't even know how many airplanes you have shot down: I was counting them at take off and I was counting them when they returned, I was woking with a major who was commanding a Lightning group. When they had to fly against the German was ok, but when they knew they would had meet you many were shivering on their seats. They believed you were beast, ready for anything "

Also, according to their records, the Italian aviation of RSI (those who decided to continue to fight for Mussolini, the only Italian pilots who could fly decent material) shoot down in action 262 Allied aircraft with the loss of 158.
Not bad, considering that the operations were in 1944 and 45, when the overwhelming numerical and logistic superiority of the Allies was well established.

The point is that, with all my respect for people who fought a war, what veterans say cannot be taken for granted (whatever side they are), there are too many examples of 'too personal' view of the facts. Understandable and probably honest, but not enough valid to be considered 'historical fact'

Magister · 02-05-2006, 12:01 AM

From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace"

With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."

FLYBOYJ · 02-05-2006, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magister

From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace"

With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."

Beurling was one of the best but you're citing a madman, he was basically a nut!!!

Magister · 02-05-2006, 01:47 AM

He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.

Dogwalker · 02-05-2006, 04:04 AM

It's rare to read of some WWII pilot who admire his adversary tactics. The same scarce consideration that US pilots showed for "italian aerobatics" italian pilots showed for the "yo-yo tactics".
Is natural that someone (especially someone who has far proved his ability) believe that his beaviour is the best and, as a matter of fact, we can read only the reports of those who survived to say this.

However, excellent pilots or not, The two groups of fighter of ANR (the northern aviation after 8 september 1943) scored a kill/loss ratio of about 2,5/1 that, with regards to the conditions in which they had to operate, can be considered quite decent.

DogW

FLYBOYJ · 02-05-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magister

He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.

No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems."

If you don't have fear in combat, you have a big problem!!!!