Italy v. England - Air to air

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

Ninskimmer, is that gentleman on your avatar a relative? What's the story?

My grandfather. He flew Lancasters with RCAF 419 sqn. for a time. He was in Wellingtons before that.

[DAVIDICUS]

How interesting that you have a familial connection to the subject matter of this forum.

On another note, it's odd to think that Lanc dreams of being your grandfather. Actually, it conjures up rather disturbing imagery don't you think?

[Nonskimmer]

I try not to dwell on that.

[DAVIDICUS]

So which combat operational model of Spitfire was the very best at September of 1943?

I wish we could get some test data on the Series 5 fighters. I have read that the Germans played around with them quite a bit and were quite impressed.

[FLYBOYJ]

To my Canadian friends - Could Buelring have been from Newfoundland?!? Just kidding, I know Scewball was from outside of Montreal. I think the RAF was way better than Italy at this time, although the Italians did have some good pilots.

[DAVIDICUS]

On the subject of tests, I came across this.


In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

[pbfoot]

http://www.constable.ca/beurling.htm
excellent site on beurling and i should probably stand corrected

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

On the subject of tests, I came across this.


In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

I think you hit the nail on the head on this - standardization of the Axis aircraft production Its hard to fight a war with 10 different relatively "good" fighter aircraft, produce them in numbers and keep them supplied. Production manhours are always watched during any aircraft production and that could make or brake a successful design.

[Nonskimmer]

That's quite the write up you've found there, DAVI. Really quite interesting. To be truthful, I'd never taken enough of an interest in Italian fighters to do much reading on them, but I must say that's beginning to change. I'd known of some German interest in later model Italian designs, but that's really about it.

[DAVIDICUS]

I've been reading some other WWII aviation forums. I have read more than one claim that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Ministry of Aviation was contemplating the Fiat G.55 as a replacement for the Messerschmitt ME-109.

From: http://www.aldini.it/re2005/history.htm (I'm not posting this as relaible evidence that the Saggitario was superior to the Spitfire ... but we all know it was. )

In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered service with the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia, 22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being used to defend Rome and Naples. The squadron had developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.The Reggiane had good behaviour in close dogfight and , according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re 2005 and Spitfire, was even better than the Spit in tight turns and handling.The operative life of the Sagittario was concluded by the Armistice , that came in the September 1943.

[Aggie08]

It's interesting to note that Italy receives the least amount of attention in any WW2 conversation and yet it produced such high performing fighters. I have to remind myself not to count them out. True, they had some ground forces issues. But it would have been interesting if the Axis had standardized production of fighters with such heavy Italian influence...

[the lancaster kicks ass]

ok when you say that the germans "played around" with with the later italian designs and were impressed, what do you expect, they've just modified them!! and i am always dubious of test data, it's a test aircraft, it's gonna be modified of made specail in some way.............

and the title of this thread is "Italy v. England - Air to air", not "Italy with German Engines Vs. England- Air to air" surely we should be comparing British planes with British engines to Italian planes with Italian engines??

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

I've been reading some other WWII aviation forums. I have read more than one claim that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Ministry of Aviation was contemplating the Fiat G.55 as a replacement for the Messerschmitt ME-109.

From: http://www.aldini.it/re2005/history.htm (I'm not posting this as relaible evidence that the Saggitario was superior to the Spitfire ... but we all know it was. )

In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered service with the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia, 22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being used to defend Rome and Naples. The squadron had developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.The Reggiane had good behaviour in close dogfight and , according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re 2005 and Spitfire, was even better than the Spit in tight turns and handling.The operative life of the Sagittario was concluded by the Armistice , that came in the September 1943.

I saw an interview with Gunter Rall, and many German Pilots did the same thing, he said they could pull high "Gs" and break away more quickly rather than just turning or diving away right side up from a bomber stream.

[DAVIDICUS]

I take it that you don't think the P-51 was an American plane but really an American plane with a British engine built under license which by definition would make it not an American plane. Thus, if we were comparing the best American fighters to the best German fighters, under your analysis, the P-51 could not be included unless we were comparing the best American fighters with British engines to the best German fighters.

I don't know how to respond to your point about test aircraft necessarily being modified in some way, ostensibly to increase performance figures. I was under the impression that it was German and Italian production aircraft that were tested although I could be wrong. A test designed to capture the performance of production aircraft that does use a representative member is subject to sampling errors.

To err in your favor though, would you not agree that any German Fw-190's and Me-109's that were tested against Italian G.55's would have been modified to enhance performance as well?

You are unwilling to entertain this point or it never occurred to you. Either way, your anti-Italian bias is showing as further evidenced by statements such as, "... the spitfire, hurricane, gloster gladiator, mosquito, and yes, the Skua and the Roc were all better fighters than anything the italians had ..."

[the lancaster kicks ass]

dude learn to take a joke