Italy v. England - Air to air

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree. While the Italians were starting to the close the gap for the most part the Italian designed aircraft were behind the top Allied and German fighters of the time.

Having said that though some of the later Italian designs were quite nice and yes in those I think the skill of pilot would come into play.

[Soren]

Griffon engined Spitfires in 1942 ? Bullockracing, you may want to re-evaluate the reliability of your source, cause there were certainly no Griffon engined Spitfire's around in 42.

Also show me a Spitfire that can do 678 km/h at 2k with just 1,475 HP please - Thats aerodynamic efficiency!

And about the maneuverability of Re.2005, well according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re.2005 and the Spitfire, the Re.2005 was even better than the Spitfire in, as he called it, "tight turns and handling".

[Jank]

With respect to pure dogfighters, on September 8th (when Italy surrendered), if you look at the very best Italian and English fighters in operation, regardless of the numbers in which they were employed (because, as pointed out, Italy fielded these planes in pitifully small numbers), I think the Series 5 fighters were probably equal to the best Spitfire and better than the best Bf-109's and Fw-190's in service. The Americans had nothing that could touch them either in terms of a thoroughbred pure dogfighter.

I don't believe that the Griffon was in use around '42 either.

[Soren]

I'd say the Fw-190 D-9 and -12 beats them both marginally...

[Jank]

The post concerns a specific slice in time - Italy surrendering. As memory serves, and I could be mistaken, the D-9 entered service in 1944. At the time Italy surrendered, September 8, 1943, I don't think the top of the line, operational 109's and 190's were as good as the Series 5's.

The first operational unit of the Regia Aereonautica to be equipped with G.55's was the 353th Squadriglia of the 20th Gruppo of the 51st Stormo. This unit started to receive G.55's in April of 1943.

[Soren]

Understood and agreed.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know how you can say it was certianly better than a Fw-190A though when it was atleast equal to a Spitfire.

[Soren]

Well at the higher altitudes the Fw-190A was at a disadvantage. The A-5 introduced in 43 running on C-3 fuel would give the Spitfire and 5 series a serious licking at low alt though, to say the least.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Fair eneogh.

[Hop]

What this debate needs is more concrete information on the Italian 5 series fighters. All that seems to be available at the moment are anecdotes and vague performance claims, rather than results of actual performance trials.

[pbfoot]

The one point i'd like to make and haven't seen here is that the series 5 Italian fighters were close to the best in performance of WW2 prop driven fighters but the point is they were late . by the time any significant amount had been constucted they would have been in the same position they found themselves in the beginning of the war . When WW2 started the Italians were flying what was the pinnacle of biplane technology but because they were behind the technology curve if and when the aircraft came on line in any significant numbers they would have been facing jets

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to agree, by the time they were starting to take to the skies on a larger scale the Allies and the Luftwaffe were putting better aircraft into the air.

How can you call the 5 series of aircraf the pinical of WW2 aviation when the Germans had the Ta-152, The US had the P-51H and K almost ready to take to the skies over Europe, the British had the Spitfire XXI and the the Fury.

[Jank]

The G.55 and Re.2005 never took to the skies in any apreciable number, and never in any "greater numbers."

At the time of Italy's surrender, September, 8, 1943, the Allies and the Luftwaffe did not have any better aircraft in the skies, period.

Comparing Italy's aircraft to operational designs that came long after her surrender (after which further development was halted) is a bit unfair. Germany's and Japan's fighter development did not continue beyond their surrender either.

DerAdlerIstGelandet, to be fair, I don't think pbfoot said that the 5 series of aircraft were the "pinnacle of WW2 aviation." He said that the Italian biplanes at the start of WWII were the pinnacle of biplane design and that is most certainly true. Pbfoot said that the Series 5's "were close to the best in performance of WW2 prop driven fighters" which is a fairly debatable proposition as indicated by your examples of the Ta-152 and the P-51H ad K. IMHO, the Series 5's were not a match for these fighters which were not fielded much later.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

calling osmething that saw so little service can be called the best in the world i mean whilst i realise they came from a long(-ish) line of fighters from which experience could be gained they saw too little service to be able to realise any faults with them, which all planes had and too little service against less than the most modern opponents to be called the best in the world...............

[Jank]

Lanc's point is well taken.

The only other thing I would add is that on December 9, 1942, the Luftwaffe's impressions of these new aircraft raised the interest of Goering himself. A commission was formed to evaluate the Italian fighers which was led led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officers and pilots and by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz.

On February 20th, top of the line examples of Bf-109 and Fw-190 were tested in apples to apples performance tests and simulated dogfights against all three Series 5's - the Macchi Mc.205, the Reggiane Re.2005 and the Fiat G.55.

Against the best german fighters, the Mc.205 was judged "average", the Re.2005 was judged "good" and the G.55 was judged "excellent." Oberst Petersen concluded that the G.55 was "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening to the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.


(Above Picture) First series of G.55 with Luftwaffe markings in Autumn, 1943. Armament was 3 x 20mm cannons and 2 x .50 cal machine guns.

The G.55 was determined to have greater potential for further development than the Bf-109. (The Fw-190 obviously had further promising design potential) Further study concluded that production of the G.55 could be reduced as low as 9,000 man hours per plane but in light of the fact that the Bf-109 could be churned out in as little as 5,000 man hours, the idea of the G.55 succeeding the Bf-109 was scrapped.