Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 120

Thread: July 26, 1941. Build the Far East Air Force.

  1. #76
    Banned Siegfried's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    794
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by buffnut453 View Post
    The Buffalos in Singapore also suffered from solenoid problems. There wasn't just one problem, though. Each installation had its peculiarities (eg ammunition feed trays etc).
    Electrical problems come from people thinking that to make a reliable connection all you need to do is screw a wire into a terminal. It takes a tradesman, technician or studious engineer to get the craftsmenship right in regards to wire protection, ferrules, plating material compatibillity, terminal re tightening, etc. Likewise with hydraulics. You need someone who can obsess about gaskets, flanges and most of all cleanliness.


  2. #77
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Brereton only arrived on November 4rth

    USAFFE was created July 26, 1941. Someone had to be in charge of FEAF before Brereton arrived. That person had over 4 months to fix logistical shortfalls. Plenty of time for cargo shipments to reach Manila from San Francisco.

  3. #78
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    BGen. Henry Clagett, Commander, Phillipine Department Air Force assigned in early May. He was relieved by Brereton upon the creation of the FEAF, November 1941.

    Biographies : BRIGADIER GENERAL HENRY B. CLAGETT

    From that website:

    In April 1941, he was ordered to duty in the Philippine Islands where he was commander of the Army Air Forces until a month before Pearl Harbor when the command was taken over by Maj. Gen. Lewis H. Brereton. From:

    During the summer of 1941, he flew to China and parts of Southeastern Asia where he conferred on strategy and defense with Nationalist Chinese, British and Dutch commanders. In November, General Brereton named him commander of the Philippines interceptor force of pursuit planes.

    I would expect such a conference to have raise the issue of the new IJN super fighter (the A6M) Chennault had observed over China in 1940. Was it? Did he consider have an opportunity to discuss Chennault's proposed tactics? Did he fail to relate what he learned and if he was made aware of the information, what did he do with it?
    Last edited by oldcrowcv63; 02-24-2012 at 06:06 PM.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  4. #79
    Creator of Interesting Threads tomo pauk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Post Thanks / Like
    Think that Chennault never encountered Zeroes, let alone before 1942?

  5. #80
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by tomo pauk View Post
    Think that Chennault never encountered Zeroes, let alone before 1942?
    True AFAIK, (its been debated here, but I think not yet proven unless I missed some relevant thread), but Channault had seen and reported on them in 1940 in China. He knew the A6M was "out there" in the IJN "quiver" and the Ki-43's were good enough to know the A6M was not a fluke. I think the real problem with US willingness to absorb this new reality, lay in inherent racism that persisted in the West and sustained a belief that the Japanese just couldn't field a credible air force whether army or navy. I am pretty sure a few realized what the US was up against but the widespread and persistent belief that US aircraft were encountering Bf-109s in the Far East, persisted until mid-1942. That suggests a reluctance to accept the truth that I am at a loss to understand otherwise.
    Last edited by oldcrowcv63; 02-24-2012 at 07:39 PM.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  6. #81
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    During the summer of 1941, he flew to China

    When did he return?

    When USAFFE was created (July 26, 1941) he should have caught then next flight back to Manila to take charge of the huge airpower expansion.

  7. #82
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well I think that's pretty much what he was doing I doubt he was in China very long. It's interesting that around that time (Mid summer) MacArthur asked for present reinforcements of:

    1. 10 more pursuit squadrons
    2. 7 medium bombardment squadrons
    3. 3 heavy bombardment squadrons

    In 3 months:

    1. 3 more heavy bombardment

    In 6 months:

    1. 3 Pursuit squadrons
    2. 2 medium bombardment squadrons
    3. 4 heavy bombardment squadrons

    That's about 260 fighters, 16 heavy bombers, and aout 150 medim bombers.

    A month later, Clagett himself, apparently requested a total of 27 pursuit squadrons, 30 heavy bombardment squadrons, and 18 light bomber squadrons!

    That's about 540 P-40s and P-39s, 600 B-17s and 360 A-24s or A-20s.

    That's more than 25% of fighters, about 100% of the heavy bombers production in the next few months, and almost 50% light bombers in the USAAF before December 31, 1941.



    I think that's the FEAF you wanted to build. But think of the airfields needed to support it and the logistics train needed to provide it necessary supplies and human resources.
    Last edited by oldcrowcv63; 02-24-2012 at 08:25 PM.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  8. #83
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,185
    Post Thanks / Like
    1. 10 more pursuit squadrons
    2. 7 medium bombardment squadrons
    3. 3 heavy bombardment squadrons
    In 3 months:
    1. 3 more heavy bombardment
    In 6 months:
    1. 3 Pursuit squadrons
    2. 2 medium bombardment squadrons
    3. 4 heavy bombardment squadrons
    I think in terms of Air Force Groups.
    .....4 heavy bombardment groups.
    .....27th Light Bombardment Group. A-24 dive bomber. Convoy 4002.
    .....35th Pursuit Group. P-40E. Convoy 4002.
    .....Pursuit group equipped with 53 x P-39D. Departed San Francisco 18 Feb 1942.
    .....B-24 long range transport group. 15 Dec 1941. Plans made to dispatch 80 B-24 transport aircraft to Philippines.


    Plus a steady stream of replacement P-40s. I assume the 125 P-40s on SS President Coolidge and SS President Polk would have upgraded existing fighter units (including PAAC) to the P-40E. They would then receive 35 or 40 new P-40s each month to replace losses.
    Pensacola Convoy and other Convoys
    Casey to Evatt Washington, 17 December 1941
    Cablegram 1163
    Most Secret

    United States is sending "in the next few days" two fast ships (President Polk and President Cooleridge) [sc. Coolidge] from the Californian coast to Australia, containing 125 P 40 fighter aircraft, 5 transport aircraft D.C. 3 type, together with United States Army Air Corps fourth mobile depot group of about 550 officers and men. Each aircraft will be accompanied by pilot, crew, observer and armourer. Above ships will also carry some ammunition and bombs. The mobile depot group will have hand tools and such other necessary maintenance equipment and machinery as the ships can carry. This depot group is to establish itself at the most appropriate place in Australia (they presume either Brisbane or Townsville) for the assembly of the above-mentioned and subsequent arriving aircraft. Subsequently about 35 or 40 P 40 fighter aircraft with pilots, bombers and ammunition may be expected monthly as reinforcements by subsequent ships.

    All of the above fighter aircraft are destined on the present plans to fly to the Philippines via Darwin and appropriate stopping places. ......
    IMO an air force expansion of this magnitude requires a senior Army Air Corps General in charge from July 26, 1941 onward. Someone who can stand up to Big Mac and ensure that air groups have all supporting bits and pieces including AA protection for airfields. It appears to me that Clagett and (later) Brereton were overwhelmed by the task and pushed to the sidelines by Gen. MacArthur.

  9. #84
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    The simplest solution would be to take Mac out of the PI, bring in Chennault in April 41, let him build FEAF, then send him back to China in the Fall of 1941 and bring back Mac..That's about as likely as anything else we've been discussing.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  10. #85
    Senior Member buffnut453's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Virginia, US of A
    Posts
    1,752
    Post Thanks / Like
    But Chennault was not a USAAF officer at that time....and he would have taken a huge pay cut to do what you're suggesting.

  11. #86
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't think its a realistic solution, I just think someone of Chenault's knowledge and organizational ability would be needed to build a FEAF able to do the job...

    OK.. If we can't recruit Chennault, how about building a time machine go back and collect some hair from the floor of his barbershop, go forward in time to clone him, and then take our clone back to the PI and set him to task. That might work swell until he read what the chinese were paying Chennault prime.

    Of course if we could just find someone as capable as Chennault that might work too. and involve no pesky paradoxes.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  12. #87
    Senior Member pbfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    niagara falls
    Posts
    7,636
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by oldcrowcv63 View Post
    OK.. If we can't recruit Chennault, how about building a time machine go back and collect some hair from the floor of his barbershop, go forward in time to clone him, and then take our clone back to the PI and set him to task. That might work swell until he read what the chinese were paying Chennault prime.

    Of course if we could just find someone as capable as Chennault that might work too. and involve no pesky paradoxes.
    How about his kid who was a Light Colonel USAAF , I believe was CO of a Squadron up in the Aleutians

  13. #88
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    Any candidate has to be as insightful as Chennault in adapting tactics to meet the threat and as knowledgable in awareness of the nature of the threat. He must be able to organize a non-RADAR based early warning system that is less vulnerable than the electronic one. He must be able to manage the arrival of personnel so that pilots and maintenance crew don't sit around idly waiting for planes. How about Eddie Rickenbacker? He's got an origanizational background from running an airline and a military pursuit background. He'd have to be activated as a general officer...
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

  14. #89
    Senior Member davebender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    as insightful as Chennault in adapting tactics to meet the threat

    If we want something besides a historical result then we need to think outside the box.

    IMO Robert Stanford Tuck was one of the best fighter pilots produced by any nation. He did good work for RAF Fighter Command during the BoB. Then Britain squandered him (and many other experienced Spitfire pilots) strafing minor targets in France.
    Robert Stanford Tuck: World War II RAF Ace Pilot
    The Duxford Wing was led by Tuck over France until October 1941, when he was taken off operations. Along with fellow ace Adolf 'Sailor' Malan, Group Capt. Harry Broadhurst, leader of the Hornchurch Wing, and three highly decorated Bomber Command pilots, Tuck was sent to the United States to share his expertise with Britain's allies.

    Tuck returned to England in December 1941
    Wing Commander Tuck was sent to the USA during 1941 to share his expertise. Let's accept the British offer. From August 1941 onward the Philippines had top priority. The U.S. Army Air Corps will request him by name to assume command of 5th Interceptor Command in the Philippines. That gives him control over all fighter aircraft in the Philippines. I suspect Wing Commander Tuck would be thrilled to have this assignment rather then strafing targets in France.

    Among other things Wing Commander Tuck knows from actual combat experience how to intercept enemy air raids using data from ground based radar. When IJN bombers appear over Clark airfield they will be bounced out of the sun by 24th Pursuit Group P-40s. Talley Ho!

  15. #90
    Senior Member oldcrowcv63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northeast North Carolina
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, it appears to be a possible solution, but would Tuck with his RAF and Eurpoean war experience repeat the Darwin Spitfire V experience? Knowing about European fighter direction may not translate well to the Far East. Would he be victim of the same european-ethnocentrism that hampered American, British & Dutch preparation for the inevitable conflict? Would he share the belief that the greatest threat to USAAF P-40s were IJAAF and IJN flown Bf-109s? The thinking in that conclusion escapes me. Where did these Bf-109s come from? Did they materielize out of thin air? was there suddenly an IJN carrier based version shared by the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine? It appears rumors were sustained and confirmed by observation. The USAAF pilots apparently believed so strongly that they couldn't have been beaten by anything but Bf-109s that when they flew and encountered A6M's they 'saw' and reported Bf-109s. How do commanders who don't know what they are facing; or worse assume an enemy possessing a far more inferior capability, properly prepare forces to face the real threat? In other words, we are back to a Channault-like surrogate. It is just possible Chennault was unique in terms of capability, position and knowledge. If you want to think out of the box... How about recruiting a high ranking officer of the Chinese Air Force who had worked with Chennault enough to know the business? I don't know of such a person, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. It just may be an indication of my lack of exposure to historical accounts written in Chinese. No a CAF officer wouldn't work. Americans wouldn't listen to or believe in such an officer...

    Is there a free agent clause that would allow us to hire an IJN officer? same problem...
    Last edited by oldcrowcv63; 02-25-2012 at 12:12 PM.
    None of us is as smart as all of us...

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW?
    By Soundbreaker Welch? in forum Aviation
    Replies: 293
    Last Post: 01-29-2012, 05:05 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •