June 25, 1944 sinking of a German destroyer.

Magister · 03-18-2006, 04:28 PM

I understand that on June 25, 1944, the Tuskegee pilots sank a German destroyer with machine gun fire while flying P-47's.

Can anyone shed some light on this event?

Erich · 03-18-2006, 04:40 PM

that is not correct, on August 25, 1944 a Z boot was destroyed but by the British

Magister · 03-18-2006, 04:58 PM

I am reading now that it may have been May 9, 1944 in the Gulf of Venice.

It was an Italian destroyer (Ariete class) named Auriga that was transferred to the German navy. The Germans renamed her TA-27. She was 275ft long and weighed 1,150 tons.

Magister · 03-18-2006, 05:22 PM

Here she is: 275 feet and 1,120 tons.

For a size comparison, here's the USS Bailey. 314 feet and 1,215 tons:

delcyros · 03-18-2006, 05:47 PM

Here it goes:
Class: ARIETE (classified as torpedo boats, not destroyers!)
Original name: Aurigia
Laid down: Gio Ansaldo&Co, Sestro-Ponente, 15th of jule 1942
size: 1.120 t.
length: 83,15 m
beam: 3,45 m
armor: virtually none except for the gunshields
armement: 2 * 10 cm;AA: 3* 3,7 cm; 14*2,0 cm; 6* 45 cm torpedo tubes;
provisions for mine laying
max speed: 31.5 kts, 22.000 SHP

The 15 torpedo boats of the Ariete class were the largest vessels of the italien navy to be overtaken by the germans after italien surrender in 1943. Aurigia renamed TA 27 had to be completed and was commissioned on 28.12.1943. The torpedo boats performed mine laying, coastel defense and escort dutys in within the newly formed 10th TB-Flottilla.
TA 27 was sunk by bomb hits (not strafing) at Portoferraio on 09.07.1944 after conducting mine laying operations with the 11th Sicherungsdivision, 2nd Geleitflottille.
Hope this helps.

Dogwalker · 03-18-2006, 06:01 PM

Portoferraio is not in the gulf of Venice, but in Elba island, near the coast of Tuscany.

Glider · 03-18-2006, 06:04 PM

I have dug into my records and found that theThe Auriga was sunk by bombs from USAF aircraft at the Pier at Porto Ferraio. It doesn't say what planes but there is no reason why they couldn't have been P51's.

She was a lot smaller than the Bailey. Her standard weight was 750 tons to the Bailey whch weighed in at 1630 standard so its not a fair comparison. A better comparison I suggest would be the US Escort Destroyers which were still larger but had a similar escort role.

Magister · 03-18-2006, 07:20 PM

US records credits an attack by the Tuskegee airmen flying P-47's and no bombs. It was a flight of six P-47's. (I'd say that qualifies as a rain of hell fire.)

http://www.africanamericans.com/TuskegeeAirmen.htm

One could see how the Germans would have concluded that it was bombs. After all, one of your destroyers blows up during an attack by fighter bombers. What would you conclude?

I think the US airmen, however, involved in the attack itself, would be in a position to know whether they were attacking with bombs or not.

See the following on tonnage. That 750 ton figure isn't right. Click "Technical Data" for the Ariete.

http://www.regiamarina.net/arsenals/...it/torp_us.htm

I believe you are correct on the USS Bailey's displacement.

Dogwalker · 03-18-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magister

I think the US airmen, however, involved in the attack itself, would be in a position to know whether they were attacking with bombs or not.

Yeah, but, first of all, one could think that they were in the position to know where they were flying.

There are no doubt that the TA-27 (Auriga) was sunk at Portoferraio and not near Trieste.
Near Trieste was sunk the TA-38 (Spada) an unit of the same class, on 13/10/44.
Axis reports stated that the crew sank it cause it suffered severe damages for an air attack, without mentioning bombs. So, it's probable that this is the right ship, and that the american site made a little confusion.
The Germans captured many units of this class because they were still under construction at the time of armistice.
However it was really a torpedo boat, not a destroyer.

Magister · 03-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Yeah, but, first of all, one could think that they were in the position to know where they were flying.

Indeed. So perhaps that aspect of delcyros' account is incorrect as well. Where is Trieste Harbor? Gulf of Venice.

275 feet long is not a "torpedo boat" in the common sense impression that such a designation has in English. Torpediniera translates to "Torpedo Boat" (The Italian designation does not track the English usage of the term - we would refer to PT-109 as a torpedo boat) and is obviously a ship as opposed to a "boat." Calling a 1,120 ton, 275 foot long vessel a boat in ter English usage sense really raises form over substance.

At any rate, after the Germans finished construction of her and renamed her TA-27, they deemed her a "Destroyer."

Dogwalker · 03-19-2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magister

Indeed. So perhaps that aspect of delcyros' account is incorrect as well. Where is Trieste Harbor? Gulf of Venice.

Sure. And Undubtely the TA-27 sunk very far from this gulf, in a completely different part of Italy and in a different sea. This is what I wanted to say.
The only unit of this type that the Tuskegee could have hit in the Gulf of Venice in 1944 is the TA-38.
The substance don't change, but Delcyros' report is not uncorrect.

Glider · 03-19-2006, 09:35 AM

Magister. The Italian definition of Torpedo Boat does fit in with the normal usage at least in the UK and Europe. The French were also quite keen on torpedo boats having a number in service when war broke out.
The main criteria is the Torpedo Armament, as they have a heavy torpedo complement and small number of guns. Destroyers originally got their name because they were designed to destroy torpedo boats.

The PT Boats are what we call Motor Torpedo Boats, we wouldn't call them torpedo boats.
Its just a small example of a difference in the usage of the same language like the spelling of colour.

As for the size I still think that the Standard displacement is 750 tons as mentioned in the site you highlighted. 1,120 is the full load displacement.

My notes mention that the TA38 was sunk by an air raid after being severely damaged by a mine. That could explain why a ship of this size was sunk by gunfire alone, remembering that the US aircrew would not have known that she had hit a mine.

Dogwalker · 03-19-2006, 10:18 AM

Photos and datas of the Ariete Class:
http://www.modelli-navali.it/MM-Ital...riete1943.html
http://www.modelli-navali.it/MM-Ital...1943/dati.html

Dogwalker · 03-19-2006, 10:35 AM

Remember that every unit of this type carryed 6 torpedoes on the bridge, every one of them charged with 270 Kg of explosive, plus the expolsive charges necessaries to launch them.
Easily the aircrafts' fire provoked the explosion of one or more of them, and the pilots judjed to have hit the powder magazine.

Magister · 03-19-2006, 01:44 PM

There are no doubt that the TA-27 (Auriga) was sunk at Portoferraio and not near Trieste.

I'm curious how it is that you are able to establish this. Why is it not possible for it to have been near Trieste?

Near Trieste was sunk the TA-38 (Spada) an unit of the same class, on 13/10/44.

By this date, all the Tuskegee were flying P-51's. I have read of the account from the pilots themselves and they state that they were flying P-47's.