Kozhedub's image...

[Chocks away!]

This thing is pretty fishy-i wish i had material to research the mustang shoot downs further...

[Shadar_Logoth]

Originally Posted by Soren

Oh go read a book or something, and spear us these cheap comments !

Hartmanns score is light-years more accurate than any Russian ace's score.

In the Soviet air force, if you didn't kill the fascist's a/c in the air, you were considered useless by communist party and one could end up in a prison or get shot. So the squadron commanders would highly exaggerate their squadron's kills. And that they relied on Partizan's for kill confirmation, didn't help either.

I know that this is a religious fact, but its impressive that the most important ace of the WW2 hs not any docummented kill, there is not guncams, not serial numbers... nothing. The only things you can see about the Hartmann victorys are:
- 150 from Personal Hartman's journal
- 187 from Letters to his wife
- 15 from the JG52 journals (there is another journal that was lost but nobody saws it).

You can read about that from the official Hartman biographers; Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable in the book "The Blond Knight of Germany". They took years trying to find evidences, but they did not find it. Strange.

and if you read this, may be find that Hartmann was a individualist guy
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/hartmann.htm

Now, look at this:

"Perhaps the last words should be left to Kozhedub himself, who provides the following revealing recollections: "I destroyed my first enemy aircraft in the air during the Battle of Kursk. Historians have been setting forth my total score as 62 victories. As a matter of fact this figure requires revision. There were many victories that either remained unconfirmed or were credited to fellow pilots. I reckon that my personal score actually is in excess of 100 victories while I never counted enemy aircraft destroyed jointly with my comrades." "

http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/kozhedub.html "

Kozhedub claimed more than 100, but VVs only confirmed 62, whats's the Hartman's method to confirm a kill? Letter to his wife?. Where is all that docummented kills from Luftwaffe?, where is the files?.

In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see.

Regards

[trackend]

It all sounds very iffy to me having tried it myself now and getting an accurate figure is very nigh impossible. verifying claims with real accuracy is a field that is beyond my limited Knowledge I can get figures from this to this but saying it was defiantly 50 or what ever seems to throw up too many variables and all I end up with is approximate numbers.
Claims leave room for error especially in the heat of a battle reports of lost aircraft do not it appears to me indicate that a certain pilot was responsible for its destruction.
I would be very interested how these figures are arrived at with such accuracy. Please enlighten me guys cheers.

[evangilder]

Well, let's see, historians generally agree that Kozhedub's tally was 62. They also generally agree of Hartmann's tally. My question is why is there quibbling about one versus the other? I have not doubt that both men were skilled in their craft and good fighter pilots. But the final comment "In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see. " is contradictory. Did you SEE those kills with your own eyes?

[trackend]

2 very valid points Evan thanks.
I didnt see WW2 but I believe it happened

[BombTaxi]

Its impossible to say that Kozhedub scored less kills than he claimed just by looking at LW loss records. Have you considered that some of his kills may have been Hungarian/Bulgarian/Slovakian? They were flying 109s...some of his 'German' 109 kills could have been scored against co-belligerent Axis airforces.

And furthermore, speaking as a soon-to-be History graduate going on to a Historical Reasearch MA, I would say confidently that there is is no such thing as a 100% reliable historical source. While the German armed forces are rightly noted for the accuracy of thier records, they are not perfect. The Germans sometimes didnt know exactly what was going on at the time, never mind after the event. While this was especially common in the confused later stages of the war, it happened from day 1. For an example, look at Guderians memoir Panzer Leader. Guderian admits that at times during the fighting in the Low Countries, he didnt know where his formations were or how they were doing, due to the speed and confusion of the advance. WEhile official war diaries are probably the most accurate records we posess, we cannot take them as gospel, because such accuracy is simply impossible.

[evangilder]

Well stated, BT. That was my question, how could one be labelled very reliabel and the other not? I think there has to be some give and take for every record in that regard.

[FLYBOYJ]

I think what we're seeing here is a bit of "Hartmann bashing" and the poor guy isn't alive to defend his record, which always makes it easy for detractors of one's achievments. As BT pointed out there is is no such thing as a 100% reliable historical source, but I think there has been so much discussion, witnesses and record to verify Hartmann's score that the whole bloody discussion should be put to rest. I think if there was any doubt to Hartmann's achievements his record would of been challenged at the end of the war, that never happened.

Why not go after Gerhard Barkhorn, or Gunter Rall, they both scored over 3x what Kozhedub did, or are they next on the "Hit List?!?!?"

[Soren]

I know that this is a religious fact, but its impressive that the most important ace of the WW2 hs not any docummented kill, there is not guncams, not serial numbers... nothing. The only things you can see about the Hartmann victorys are:
- 150 from Personal Hartman's journal
- 187 from Letters to his wife
- 15 from the JG52 journals (there is another journal that was lost but nobody saws it).

His bloody wingmen saw it, aswell as his squadron commander(s) ! If his score in any way was as questionable as you propose, his score would never be mentioned as 352 !

You can read about that from the official Hartman biographers; Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable in the book "The Blond Knight of Germany". They took years trying to find evidences, but they did not find it. Strange.

Strange ??!!! His Wingmen are all liars in your eyes maybe ?

Hartmanns kills are all confirmed Shadar !

and if you read this, may be find that Hartmann was a individualist guy
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/hartmann.htm

Really, and how is that ? What in there makes him a possible liar ?

Now, look at this:

"Perhaps the last words should be left to Kozhedub himself, who provides the following revealing recollections: "I destroyed my first enemy aircraft in the air during the Battle of Kursk. Historians have been setting forth my total score as 62 victories. As a matter of fact this figure requires revision. There were many victories that either remained unconfirmed or were credited to fellow pilots. I reckon that my personal score actually is in excess of 100 victories while I never counted enemy aircraft destroyed jointly with my comrades." "

Oh sure, we should believe in Kozhedub himself, but not Hartmann..

If any of those two is a liar, then its Kozhedub !

Kozhedub claimed more than 100, but VVs only confirmed 62,

Source ?

Where is all that docummented kills from Luftwaffe?, where is the files?.

Where do you think it is ??! Most likely locked up in some Russian archive not to be seen ! Or burned during the last hours of the war, who knows !

Where is Kozhedub's documents ?

Fact is Hartmann's kills were all confirmed, or else he wouldnt have been able to paint his tally on his a/c, simple as that. And if he in any way tried to exaggerate his score, he would have been given very short shrift by his peers !

There's a reason Hartman's score is accepted as 352, and no less !

In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see.

Well obviously then, you are blind !