LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Politics clearly played a huge role in Luftwaffe' kill credits too. Experten claims were "rushed through" where other pilots had to wait up to a year to recieve official credit. Marseille is a case in point, and it is clear from the document above that he was overclaiming by at least 2:1.

Oh please !

[kiwimac]

Fact of the matter is that to trust that a fighter pilot in the middle of a dogfight with adrenaline rushing about his system and in mortal fear of being killed will accurately assess their kill rate is extremely foolish.

Kiwimac

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Politics clearly played a huge role in Luftwaffe' kill credits too. Experten claims were "rushed through" where other pilots had to wait up to a year to recieve official credit. Marseille is a case in point, and it is clear from the document above that he was overclaiming by at least 2:1.

I just dont believe that Marseille overclaimed that much. Overclaimed some just like every pilot yes, but not that much. Sounds to me that htis document is just BS and trying to put down some of the greatest fighter pilots of all times because they did so well against the victor. Pure Politics to me! Overclaiming happened yes. Some more then others deffinatly, some way more then others but that is like saying that Erich Hartmann did not even get half of his kills that he claimed. Sorry but I can not believe it to that extent. POLITICS

[Erich]

soley depends on whether or not the Luftwaffe pilots was active in the party. Other than that he had an even chance as any other pilot exclusion of rank. Ture some performers who had the "knack" of air combat were given other pilots victories later in the war. We have proof of Kurt /Welter and his night jet claims.....that is in our book.

Marseille was hot pure and simple, he could feel his way through an air battle where few could even dare to dread.

Anton Hackl was another as well as Heinz Bär. although Hartmann, Barkhorn and Rall had extreme scores none of these contended with western forces like the others I mentioned. Rall even had his thumb shot off while in II./JG 11 though his air battle he was not one ven scale with the Jugs chasing his butt. When Rall served as CO of JG 300 in 1945 he did absolutely nothing as to flying as an active member of the Reich defence unit which indeed pisses off many JG 300 veteran today.

E ~ overclaiming was done by both sides an evident fact to boost home moral. All sides; fighter groups, etc. needed heroes............

To claim that the Luftwaffe was worse than Western Allies/{kills} is plain bogus, I've been studying these from both sides, angles, call it what you wish since the early 1960's.....

♪

[Udet]

Erich:

Still Rall sent 2 Jugs down to bite the ground -on real quick succession-.

[wmaxt]

I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by wmaxt

I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

German claims aint MUCH closer to the truth, only a very tiny bit, if at all.

I generally considder U.S., British and German claims equally reliable, eventhough some did overclaim more than others, but it wasnt in any substantial way.

[Erich]

guess my point is big deal !

Udet, Rall scored 1 Jug as his 275th kill on 12 May 44. 1 P-51 and 1 Jug were scored by his II./JG 11 for a loss of 2 killed, 5 wounded and 11 Bf 109G-6's lost...........

Germans lost 79 a/c with 28 killed and 24 wounded in the days action

Originally Posted by Erich

To claim that the Luftwaffe was worse than Western Allies/{kills} is plain bogus, I've been studying these from both sides, angles, call it what you wish since the early 1960's.....♪

Erich, I'm not claiming that the Luftwaffe' was "worse" than the W. Allies about overclaiming, only that they were not better about it. And also and that their claims were never adjusted post war as many allied claims were.

And that evidently politics had more to do with it because of the nature of the German system of medals and honors based upon scoring of kills - no other nation had such a formalized system of rewards. Such as system clearly encourages "cheating", especially for those working on a rack.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by wmaxt

I think the point that is being made is that it occured everywhere. It has been stated in this forum that the German credits are Much Closer to the Truth has been made several times and as RG has shown this is probably not true.

The worst overclaiming was US bomber crews where 50 gunners got a shot in. They were counted because if the truth were known nobody would get back in the planes the next day! Thats an exageration they were exceptionaly brave men! But I'm sure you get the point.

Exactly!

And I agree, bomber gunner kills were way over-claimed. But we really don't care so much about that do we?

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

Ich verstehen RG.

Soviets were the worst of supplanting their "Aviation heroes". heck all you had to do was survive a day of battle and you were awarded something. Funny elite air units. compared to what ?

the Luftwaffe system was painstaking according to surviving vets whether fighter, bomber, ground attack, recon, etc. As we have chatted about confirmation of claims during the fall of 44 to wars end watered done to nothing we will ever fully know what was confirmed or not so we cannot even compare ideas of whom did what on an equal basis. this was so markedly evident on the Ost front during 1945. There are listings of pilots just given kill credits by stating single engine a/c on certain dates.

[delcyros]

I am convinced that we don´t have that distant positions here. Just remember, the Luftwaffe had a system of official confirmation. However, it could take years for some individuals and days for others, indicating that a few have been handled in a suspect way. Further we have the position that most late war claims haven´t been confirmed either. There is just a kind of official registration with the general insurance that concrete invetisgations will be done after wars end. The verification of these claims is task of historicans, or isn´t it?
By the way, Hartmann was officially accused by the Soviets in 1948 for the destruction of 345 of the peoples fighters...

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I just dont believe that Marseille overclaimed that much. Overclaimed some just like every pilot yes, but not that much. Sounds to me that htis document is just BS and trying to put down some of the greatest fighter pilots of all times because they did so well against the victor. Pure Politics to me! Overclaiming happened yes. Some more then others deffinatly, some way more then others but that is like saying that Erich Hartmann did not even get half of his kills that he claimed. Sorry but I can not believe it to that extent. POLITICS

Well, lets look at the info presented:

Marseille, The Star of Africa, was awarded his first kill on 8 September for a Spitfire, on the same day 4 other Spitfires were claimed though the RAF only lost 1, was Marseille mistaken and he destroyed a Hurricane, OKL awarded 8 Hurricane kills but Frank's details only 4 as being shot down!! Marseille went on to claim 6 other victories over the Channel, none of which are detailed in any official records but go to make up his tally of 158 "kills".

Okay, so lets assume that Marseille scored either the 1 Spitfire or one of the 4 Hurc's lost that day. But that still leaves the 6 false claims over the channel.

12 Oct 1941
Allied losses, 2 P-40's were shot down, 1 crashed on landing, 1 crashed inside Allied lines.
4 kills were awarded, 2 to Marseille, 1 to Sinner & Franzikest

Well, it's getting a little sketchy but lets assume both claims were legit (meaning Sinner & Franzikest's kills were not).

3 September 1942
2 P-40's shot down, 1 crash landed at base.
6 kills awarded, 3 to Marseille & 3 to Stahlschmidt (including a Spitfire, not present)

Well, here Marseille's could only have a maximum of 2 legitimate "confirmed" victories, and we have to assume then that all 3 of Stahlshmidt's claims were false.

5 September 1942
2 Spitfires shot down, 1 P-40 shot down and 1 damaged
9 Kills awarded, 4 (All P-40) to Marseille, 2 to Stahlschmidt and 3 to Rodel

This time, a maximum of 3 legit kills were possible, assuming that all 5 other claims were false and Marseille mis identified Spitfires as P-40's.

15 September 1942
5 P-40 shot down and 1 shot down by own LAA
7 kills for Marseille, 4 to Krainek, 3 to Schroer (incl Spitfire)2 for von Lieres and singles to Homuth, Bornger, Grube & Stuckler.

A maximum of 5 legit kills assuming all 13 other kills were false.

So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by Erich

Ich verstehen RG.

Soviets were the worst of supplanting their "Aviation heroes". heck all you had to do was survive a day of battle and you were awarded something. Funny elite air units. compared to what ?

the Luftwaffe system was painstaking according to surviving vets whether fighter, bomber, ground attack, recon, etc. As we have chatted about confirmation of claims during the fall of 44 to wars end watered done to nothing we will ever fully know what was confirmed or not so we cannot even compare ideas of whom did what on an equal basis. this was so markedly evident on the Ost front during 1945. There are listings of pilots just given kill credits by stating single engine a/c on certain dates.

Well, it serves them to have had the confirmation system be as legitimized as possible. This does not make it so.

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system, and probably less accurate than the US claim system which generally required definative guncam proof of a kill, but "probables" were awarded pretty causually. Even kills "withnessed" by a wingman were often credited. If you didn't get it on film and the flight leader didn't see it, you usually didn't get credit unless the wreck was located and there were no other claims in that area at that time. Some kills that were awarded during the war under less than stringent proof were revoked after the war.

=S=

Lunatic

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system, and probably less accurate than the US claim system which generally required definative guncam proof of a kill,

RG Gun-camera footage wasnt at all needed to confirm a kill, and was only used IF POSSIBLE ! (The exact same goes for the Germans)