LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

[delcyros]

Since the claims of Marsaille are that important for the chain of clues I will check it´s sources. I read a few years ago this particular article and some contrary articles about it. I am sure, these loss rates have been highly misinterpreted by the authors, who didn´t take losses by auxilary forces (South African, Australian) into account. However I cannot proof in the moment but I check it in within a week. Anyway, I believe that there have been overclaiming in the Luftwaffe fighter force, sure.

[Erich]

Dr. Jochen Priens volume on I./JG 27 should give you plenty of information from the German archiv's and the JG 27 Gemeinschaft.

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[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

German claims aint MUCH closer to the truth, only a very tiny bit, if at all.

I generally considder U.S., British and German claims equally reliable, eventhough some did overclaim more than others, but it wasnt in any substantial way.

This I completey agree with and is what I have been trying to say the whole time.

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

So in the best case, of 23 awarded kills Marseilles could have had at most 13 kills, an overclaiming rate of 77%! And that assumes most of the claims by other Luftwaffe' pilots were false.

The sources for this data are available if you want to argue it is inaccurate. The only way the OKL data can be correct is if British loss records were very very wrong - and that is unlikely given the nature of such internal wartime reports.

I am sorry but I simply just can not belive this. Maybe because it is written by the side that was getting shot down by him, but I have just read to many other accounts that state his kills. I am sure he overclaimed some however I doubt by 77 percent.

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

My point is just that the Luftwaffe' claim system was no more accurate than the British claim system

The problem here is no one here is disputing what you are saying here. Just that it was done just as much as others. Polotics my friend, polotics again. For someone who seems to know so much about polotics running the military you dont seem to understand this. The allies poloticians and higher ups ran the propoganda just as much as the Nazi's did.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I am sorry but I simply just can not belive this. Maybe because it is written by the side that was getting shot down by him, but I have just read to many other accounts that state his kills. I am sure he overclaimed some however I doubt by 77 percent.

Addler, to make that 77% over-kill number look at the number of other Luftwaffe' pilots who had to be totally making false claims. That figure is based upon Marseilles having gotten all the kills possible. The number is very conservative - it was in fact probably much higher.

The problem I see with relying on those accounts is they all had a vested interest in supporting his claims, and once they'd done so a vested interest in not changing their stories.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The problem here is no one here is disputing what you are saying here. Just that it was done just as much as others. Polotics my friend, polotics again. For someone who seems to know so much about polotics running the military you dont seem to understand this. The allies poloticians and higher ups ran the propoganda just as much as the Nazi's did.

The Nazi's were huge on propoganda - in Spring 1944 most of the German army believed that NYC was being bombed by the Luftwaffe' on a regular basis, and the German army in Italy was being told that the German army on the E. front was winning against the Russians. While it is true the US and Britain ran their own propoganda campaigns, they were no where near as outragous as the German's.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Addler, to make that 77% over-kill number look at the number of other Luftwaffe' pilots who had to be totally making false claims. That figure is based upon Marseilles having gotten all the kills possible. The number is very conservative - it was in fact probably much higher.

The problem I see with relying on those accounts is they all had a vested interest in supporting his claims, and once they'd done so a vested interest in not changing their stories.

So you are saying that Marsailles overclaiming was more than 77% and so lets say he probably actually shot down less then 20 out of 100 of his claims? If that is what you are implying then I am implying that you are full of #$%@. I hope that I do not have to imply this, and that I am mearly just misunderstanding you.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The Nazi's were huge on propoganda - in Spring 1944 most of the German army believed that NYC was being bombed by the Luftwaffe' on a regular basis, and the German army in Italy was being told that the German army on the E. front was winning against the Russians. While it is true the US and Britain ran their own propoganda campaigns, they were no where near as outragous as the German's.

=S=

Lunatic

I am not implying that the Nazi propoganda was not crazy. It most certainly was and easily a second to the communist Soviet propoganda but the US and British propoganda altered the truth probably more then you want to admit to support there stories and claims. Allies pilots today still over exagerate there stories just to make them sound and look much better then they truely were and to downplay the Luftwaffe's ability.

[Erich]

RG really do not think your statement about NYC as being valid. Even in the spring of 44 German Heer, Luftwaffe, W-SS truppen were fighting for their lives and they knew they were not on the winning end, but they did their duty as best they could

getting back to the star of Afrika:

http://www.jg27.de

another site to check out for other German viewpoint. Marseille was a crowd pleaser and was used as a major propaganda tool all over Europe. could be quite true that some of kills were from other I./JG 27 pilots and the points and zum Wohl toasts were to his favour.

Preddy of course was used as an instrumental propaganda tool while with the US 352nd fg 'Blue Nosers" as the top Mustang pilot to beat in the ETO, and many fighter groups tried in their best way to meet his able score.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I will not discount that some of his kills were overclaimed or propaganda. I have stated taht before however I dont think it was as high as 77 percent as RG believes as his bible.

[Erich]

I do not think that any of I./JG 27's kills in Afrika are pure propaganda myth. JG 27 besides JG 77 were the only Luftw wings able to counter Allied US and RAF-Aussie threats.

Marseille was brilliant as a pilot but there is some serious debate even from German hoistorians as whether or not some of his kills, and it is known how many, but that some may have been scored by wingmen and others of his staffel-gruppe. On the other big hand maybe we have some pure Allied B.S. to cover some victorious ass as Afrika was lost by German forces. We cannot discount this no matter what has been claimed as pure fact written into Allied documentive texts. I have seen many and it is not add up.

Ground line is that we may not get anywhere trying to compare notes if available of whom shot down who and the final outcome when the indivdual air battles are conceaded.

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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

So you are saying that Marsailles overclaiming was more than 77% and so lets say he probably actually shot down less then 20 out of 100 of his claims? If that is what you are implying then I am implying that you are full of #$%@. I hope that I do not have to imply this, and that I am mearly just misunderstanding you.

20 - No, but perhaps as few as 80 of his 158 claims? Quite possible.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I am not implying that the Nazi propoganda was not crazy. It most certainly was and easily a second to the communist Soviet propoganda but the US and British propoganda altered the truth probably more then you want to admit to support there stories and claims. Allies pilots today still over exagerate there stories just to make them sound and look much better then they truely were and to downplay the Luftwaffe's ability.

Allied pilots definitely - wartime propoganda yes - but the statistics and raw data of the post-war military studies - I think not. If you look at them, they are very generous of German capability. It was important to be as accurate as possible to assess the situtation w.r.t. the Russians.

And as far as "making themselves sound and look much better...", what makes you sound better - that you defeated a weak foe or that you defeated a strong one?

=S=

Lunatic

[Erich]

RG I think you will find that by sitting down with many US fighter pilots and talk with them about late 44 till wars end you can safely say the vets think the Luftwaffe pilots were all crap. Ego ? maybe, maybe not.

As for the star of Afrika it appears that maybe 25-30 kills can be attributed to other German pilots but ya know none of us were there so that pretty much squelchs it. As for the Allied histories well at least for RAF there are practically none. It has been only the last 5 years after serious digging that RAF night heavy groups/the net: are just coming out with "official" statements to true losses and they were more than what was given during the war and after until now.

Originally Posted by Erich

RG I think you will find that by sitting down with many US fighter pilots and talk with them about late 44 till wars end you can safely say the vets think the Luftwaffe pilots were all crap. Ego ? maybe, maybe not.

As for the star of Afrika it appears that maybe 25-30 kills can be attributed to other German pilots but ya know none of us were there so that pretty much squelchs it. As for the Allied histories well at least for RAF there are practically none. It has been only the last 5 years after serious digging that RAF night heavy groups/the net: are just coming out with "official" statements to true losses and they were more than what was given during the war and after until now.

I guess my point is that I think that just about all the high scoring aces of all nations overclaimed by about 2:1.

In general, I think the first 5 kills were very carefully scrutinized except where real propaganda value was immeadiately involved. Beyond that, it was still fairly accurate to between 10-20 kills, but after that to an increasing degree the "Ace's" claims were credited with less and less scrutiny since he became a propaganda and moral tool - a "star" of sorts.

=S=

Lunatic

[delcyros]

All Possible. There is a strong conjunction between claims and confirmed kills for top pilots. And there is good evidence that the reason was propaganda. But I think you cannot rate claims to real kills, lets say- 2:1 in general. This is a question, which has to be answered from case to case. And it can be done, since we are talking about individuals with specific combat records.
By the way, thanks Erich, for the hint of Dr. Priens book, it provides some vital informations about the specific times of Marsailles claims.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I do agree that a lot were done for propaganda sources and I do believe that it was done by all pilots. I think a lot more were done out of mistake though. Sometimes it is hard to establish a clear kill for someone when lets say everyone is gunning for it.

Trust me RG I am not argueing the truth that it was done just to what extent by some pilots and by what nations.

Originally Posted by delcyros

All Possible. There is a strong conjunction between claims and confirmed kills for top pilots. And there is good evidence that the reason was propaganda. But I think you cannot rate claims to real kills, lets say- 2:1 in general. This is a question, which has to be answered from case to case. And it can be done, since we are talking about individuals with specific combat records.
By the way, thanks Erich, for the hint of Dr. Priens book, it provides some vital informations about the specific times of Marsailles claims.

When talking about any specific pilot that is true. But when talking about all the high scoring aces as a group it is certainly possible to make a generalization such as that as many as half the claims were false.

=S=

Lunatic

[Udet]

RG Lunatic:

Sometimes after reading some of your postings i do think you honor your nickname, especially the Lunatic part.

So German people were convinced New York was being bombed?
That is very great information. I will take that as something you actually meant. Aftermath: i will put into doubt everything you have said when participating in all threads.

As Erich correctly put it, many USAAF veterans will speak fluently on the issue of " how easy" were late war German pilots. They will be glad to appear in some crappy history channel documental, speaking with a big smile on their faces: "You have to understand German pilots in 1944 where totally different from those of 1940 or 1941..."

It appeared more a process of catharsis to me rather than an honest and straight presentation of their experiences.

The big smile on the face of one of those veterans appeared being one of relief even 40 or 45 or 50 years after the termination of world war II.

I wonder if those veterans could ever explain their very high losses in Europe. What kind of stuff would they display in attempting to come up with any rational argument?


They really want to implant the notion the war the USA waged against Japan and Germany had identical patterns.

Absolutely flat and plain illiterate hogwash.

The only identical thing about fighting in both Europe and the Pacific was one: the outcome, total victory.

The path followed to gain victory was not identical though. Fighting Germany in the air was an extremely tough and vicious thing.

Unlike you and your veteran friends i do not care about the opinions of the all of you. Unlike you and your friends, I am not to repeat the same stuff over and over again wondering if it ever might become the truth.

If you continue to believe all this things it is absolutely great for me.

You apparently need some memory refreshing: throughout mid-late 1944 a bunch of "undertrained" kids became experts in digesting USAAF heavy bombers. Sturmbock.

Perhaps the propaganda of your country has never informed you of the big number of psychiatric cases amongst USA aircrews after meeting with the Luftwaffe throughout the "easy" year of 1944.

I will close this posting by reminding of you of some facts:

(i) The first nation to put a jet fighter in operation was Germany -not the USA-,

(ii) The very first jet aces in the history of this planet are guys of the Luftwaffe -meaning not from the USA-.

(iii) Several of those jet aces -Germans, not from the USA- shot down more planes than the bulk of the aces of your country.