LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

[Erich]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm I probably should make some sort of comment in relationship to the former Night crews that I know, but I won't at this time.

Am waiting for friend and author Dr. Theo Boiten to release his works on the night air war and another one and hopeful much more concise than has been written.....German night fighter claims that will include some first hand accts. and new fotos. Maybe once this volume due in 2006-2007 gets in more hands we can discuss the German night boyz.

Funny although not unheard of, there are still RAF bombers and crews un-accounted for, shot down during 1945 and never placed in a losses list nor memorial

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Does not surprise me, it happened on all sides also.

Will be interesting to see some of those works.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I think RG is disputing all Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

No, I'm saying for all pilots with high numbers of kills the validity of the claims must be considered with great skepticism. That includes Brit pilots with more than maybe 15 kills, USA pilots with more than maybe 8-10 kills, and Soviet pilots with more than about 15-20 kills. Once they got up into the higher ranks of the Aces for their respective nations, the rules for validating a claim tended to become less strict. For the Luftwaffe', this probably didn't become an issue till perhaps 50+ kills.

It would also be influenced by the "need" at the time of the country in question for propoganda hero's.

The only point I'm really trying to make is that the common claim that the Luftwaffe' confirmation system was beyond reproach seems bogus - it was no better than any other nations.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

No, I'm saying for all pilots with high numbers of kills the validity of the claims must be considered with great skepticism. That includes Brit pilots with more than maybe 15 kills, USA pilots with more than maybe 8-10 kills, and Soviet pilots with more than about 15-20 kills. Once they got up into the higher ranks of the Aces for their respective nations, the rules for validating a claim tended to become less strict. For the Luftwaffe', this probably didn't become an issue till perhaps 50+ kills.

Then maybe the thread should be titled: HIGH SCORING ACE Claims vs. Kills.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Then maybe the thread should be titled: HIGH SCORING ACE Claims vs. Kills.

Perhaps, but the point behind the post was specifically that the common assertion that the Luftwaffe' claims were better validated than those of other nations was the focus of the thread. No one has ever disputed the fact that other nations over-claimed, but it has generally been put forth that the Luftwaffe' did not.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have never read any sources that claim that the Luftwaffe did not overclaim. I also have never heard of anyone claim that they did not.

[evangilder]

What I do find confusing is that you say that the Luftwaffe over-claimed, which I do believe as I beleive that everyone did, but for Germany you say it was at 50+ kills, but for everyone else it was between 8 and 20. Following that, it seems like you are saying that Luftwaffe claims are more reliable.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hmmm..... good point there even. It does appear to be that.

Originally Posted by evangilder

What I do find confusing is that you say that the Luftwaffe over-claimed, which I do believe as I beleive that everyone did, but for Germany you say it was at 50+ kills, but for everyone else it was between 8 and 20. Following that, it seems like you are saying that Luftwaffe claims are more reliable.

How is it confusing? Luftwaffe' Experten had claims running well over 100, no other nation but the Soviets had claims running over 50. It's a matter of ratio.

[delcyros]

I viewed quite a bit of books for that matter. Without proper loss listings (there are no for No.5 south african squadron in 1942, accessable for me..) it is unprobable to verify Marssailles claims on a reliable base. I hope that a friend in London will help me with some sources, but this will take additional time to do so.
What I found out is that most concernings come from Marssailes claims at 17th of september ´42 ( in german books as well). Price wrote something in his book to confirm his claims but they remain questionable. The recorded british losses are highly suspect in this specific timeframe / region.
The claims of JG 27 doesn´t fit well in detail. On the other hand there are lots of datas, where I do not doubt in the claims (specificly at kills over german held airfields, since you can verify kills easily) without very good reasons. This could also underline overclaimings! It needs more investigation to decide.
(By the way, RG, if you still want the translation of the Bf-109 F manuel than tell me, I would go starting it next week)

I'm attaching the 109F files, a translation would be excellent!

[Glider]

The Numbers game was is and probably always will be a bone of contention. I think we all agree that it happened in all the Air forces of the war often for good reasons, Confusion panic, you see hits, planes break away smoking but to follow it down to see it hit the ground was close to suicide. Sometimes they got away sometimes a second pilot fired at it. Sometimes you didn't hit anything and the smoke was exhaust fumes as they gave it all they had to get away. Its nature to claim,

It becomes contentious when it becomes policy or dare I say it deliberate. No doubt when Germany started to suffer reverses the temptation to exagerate is almost undertstandable. The same is likely to happen in other airforces.

The following is a quote from The Eagles War. It refers to a quote from Dixie Alexander, an American who served in the RAF, then in an Eagle Squadron and finally in the 8th Air Force. A man who knew all the tricks.

'I broke in several of the later real big aces, and without mentioning names, they never showed me that much. They were not good shots and were not the best in the thought department - two very necessary items. Some of the huge scores were run up on the confirmation such as A confirming two for B, and B confirming three for A. This went on and on when the same people worked together.
After 168 sorties of various types in combined operations I finally wound up with 6 destroyed and 1 probable. Don Blakeslee, who was just about the best, had 12 in 450 missions.

Alexander makes some critical points about unit effectiveness in terms of the kill ratio.
The British kill ratio in the whole of the war was about 3.5 dsestroyed to 1 lost. The record on the 4th Fighter Group, Blakeslee's outfit showed a ratio of 4.5 to 1. This was the oldest, most experienced fighter group in the ETO studded with experienced and accomplished leaders. It doesn't make sense to believe that the 56th Group, a younger, less experienced outfit flying in the skies, with the same type of aircraft could achieve a record of 8 to 1.

What I have quoted is contentious enough and I will not quote the rest as names are named.

However what strikes me is the way it was worded. Where deliberate overclaiming was made the view of their fellow pilots is little more than contempt.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good reading there.

[Tim]

Are there any books or sites that authoriatatively attempt to reconcile the claims of one side with the losses of another?

This is a fascinating discussion of special interest to me these days. Like others here I accepted the integrity of the OKL claims verification protocol, but at least in the case of Marseille and apparently in the BoB there seems to be some considerable doubt.

I understand that the Russians have still not allowed public access to VVS records of the period. Is this why the high scores of the Eastern front Jagdwaffe stand more or less unchallenged - because each cannot be reconciled with Soviet losses?

Does the accounting of claims versus losses all have to be done from scratch from original sources?

[Erich]

well if you are wishing for something as to day fighter claims get on the stick and visit the Freiburg archivs in Germany and the Pro archive in England. At least it is a start to try and paste the information together. Realize that by November 44 German fighter pilots were not given total credits for the downing of Allied a/c and records are sadly lacking, thus we have for the high scoring experten the what ifs of the probable claims.

for night fighters I am looking forward to the Nachtjagd War Diaries which will cover many many German night fighter pilots with cross checks of RAF equipment downed by them ............ years of research with many helping on this huge project will make it the ultimate for the night air war afficendo's