LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN Claims vs. Kills

LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN, Fact or Fiction?

By Jeff Kenneday

Updated version: 12/6/04

All throughout conflict, the claims of damage caused to the enemy has been far in excess of the actual damage incurred. Partly to keep morale high, but often in the honest opinion that the damage had been inflicted upon the enemy.

This discrepancy has been highlighted in the 20th Century where the claims made by U-Boat & Submarine Commanders, Pilots and Air Gunners became of great importance to the various propaganda units and the inflated claims passed on to history.

Ludovic Kennedy, in his book "Pursuit" which covers the chase for the Bismark and its destruction refers to the attack by Admiral Vian & his Destroyers;(I have paraphrased this) "Claims were submitted by the Destroyers for 3, possibly 4 hits on Bismark. However no hits were made, equally Bismark claimed to have sunk a Destroyer and damage caused to others. All claims were made in good faith, the crews after hours at action stations EXPECTED to make hits, and they saw what they assumed they would see, so any unusual explosions were assumed to have been hits and were claimed as such." Similarly for the Fighter Pilots, I have fired at the enemy; I believe I had hit him, that 'plane going down in smoke must be mine.

After WW2, the claims by USN Submarine commanders were officially reviewed and a substantial number of claimed sinkings disallowed, and in a few cases, increased. The claims made by RAF & USAAF fighter pilots were discounted (and often ridiculed) after access was allowed into the records of the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Forces.

However, despite the awarded victories soaring above 350, the victory claims of Luftwaffe pilots were considered above reproach, that the Luftwaffe had a system that was meticulous and carefully researched and checked.

The Decoration system of the Luftwaffe was also closely tied to the Victories awarded, Aircraft types had points allocated to them and a certain number of points resulted in the award being posted. Added to this, was the Political situation which could have easily been used to "coerce" other pilots to confirm claims. Some Pilots, Marseille for one, seemed to have their claims confirmed much faster than the system implies, and whose careers were closely monitored by the Armed Services Press.

Recently however, the information has surfaced which allows us to compare the "kills" awarded to Luftwaffe Pilots against the losses incurred by the RAF on a day by day basis. Startling discrepancies appear between those numbers which were awarded as kills and the actual losses suffered by the RAF.

The period up to the end of the Battle of Britain, November 1 1940 provides a capsule in time where claims and losses can be compared and where a good base of data appears. Specific USAAF 8th Air Force & Bomber Command Raids can also be compared, though while Allied information shows the total losses, they often do not distinguish Flak, & "Other" losses from those where the Aircraft was Shot Down. It is therefore not unlikely that Allied losses can be greater than the claims made for their destruction.

In this article I will try to compare come of these Days, comparing the claims approved by the OKL Administration which tally up to the claims made by the Luftwaffe experten, you can see each of the Victories awarded to Galland, Marseille, Steinhof, Munchenberg etc, against the losses suffered by the RAF. Some days, usually when the numbers involved were highest, the discrepancies where high. On the quieter days the numbers were closer.

I do not attempt to denigrate the efforts and skills of the Luftwaffe Experten; they fought a much harder war than the RAF and their chances to accumulate Victories much higher. Neville Duke, one of the high scoring RAF pilots with 28 "kills" entered the action in April 1941, was sent on 2, 6 month rest periods and left combat about 6 months before wars end, therefore being in action for about 36 months flying about 490 sorties, added to this was the rarity in which Luftwaffe aircraft were sighted after late 1943. The Luftwaffe wore their Pilots into the ground, though the number of Allied Aircraft in the skies made finding their foe much easier. Hartmann did not get posted to JG52 until August 1942, was consistantly flying up to 4 missions each day flying over 1400 missions through some of the worst flying weather on earth. I am unable to compare any figures for the war in the East, I am unsure that even the Red Air Force knew the actual size of their losses, and leave this field for someone else to investigate.

18 DECEMBER 1939 HELIGOLAND BIGHT

On 18 December 1939, the RAF decided to mount a raid on the German fleet at Wilhelm shaven and orders were drafted for 24 Wellington Medium bombers to carry out the raid. 9 aircraft from 149 Squadron, 9 from 9 Squadron and 6 from 37 Squadron were selected to "Attack enemy warships in the Schillig Roads or Wilhelmshaven. Great care is to be taken to ensure that no bombs fall on shore"

While 24 Wellington's took off, 2 from 149 Sqn returned to base early leaving 22 to carry on. The bombers managed to successfully fly over the German Fleet, but their Orders about bombing German soil caused the abortion of the raid as the leader decided the ships, tied up in Port where too close to shore to be bombed. It was only after they turned for home did the German Fighters attack.

The ensuing massacre saw thew shooting down of 10 Wellingtons, nearly 50% of the attacking force, however the Fighters claimed to have destroyed 34 Victories, over 150% of the attackers though OKL pruned this down to 26, still more than the force started with.

What happened to the excellent Luftwaffe system which has been held above reproach, and stand as the solid base for the amazing claims by its pilots?

In a frantic, swirling battle, it wasn't hard to ASSUME your shots had caused the fatal damage, especially to a Bomber which took a good amount of damage to destroy. You make your run, score solid hits, flash past at 300mph+, when you turn you see a 'plane fall out of the sky, It MUST be yours, and your wingman confirms it as he sees the same thing.

An excuse can be made that the action was over the sea, and destroyed aircraft could not be investigated.


JULY 1940-OCTOBER 1940 THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN.

The Battle of France was a wild melee, Allied Units continually falling back and the advancing Germans meant that both sides could be excused for poor paperwork.

After the collapse of France , the Luftwaffe turned to England and after some sparring over Convoys, on 10 July began what is known as The Battle of Britain.

Through out the Battle, which continued to 31 October 1940, the Luftwaffe Propaganda machine claimed to have destroyed over 3000 RAF aircraft, clearly exceeding the size of the RAF at the time. OKL officially credited its Pilots with the destruction of about 1955 Spitfires & Hurricanes (I have deducted Defiants, Blenheims and other aircraft) which compares unfavourably with the RAF losses of either 932 ("The Narrow Margin" by Wood & Dempster) or 755 Spitfires & Hurricanes (Fighter Command Losses & Casualties by Frank) Included in the RAF losses are those which were shot down by Bombers, and not included in the OKL figures but not those which "crash landed at an airfield" and were repaired. It is hard to pick out those shot down by the Bombers as many final moments are not clear and they are only listed as shot down.

In this period, the reputation of many Luftwaffe experten were built upon, but it appears that their tallies must be inflated. Marseille, The Star of Africa, was awarded his first kill on 8 September for a Spitfire, on the same day 4 other Spitfires were claimed though the RAF only lost 1, was Marseille mistaken and he destroyed a Hurricane, OKL awarded 8 Hurricane kills but Frank's details only 4 as being shot down!! Marseille went on to claim 6 other victories over the Channel, none of which are detailed in any official records but go to make up his tally of 158 "kills".

Other days with "interesting" results
Date OKL Awards Narrow Margin/Franks
10 July 27 5/1
11 July 2 4/7
29 July 18 3/3
8 August 38 19/15
11 August 55 32/26
15 August 87 34/30
18 August 86 27/29
31 August 97 37/39
6 September 58 23/20
7 September 72 28/23
15 September 69 26/27
27 September 79 28/24
30 September 54 20/14

By the end of the Battle RAF losses were only 47.67% of OKL awards according to The Narrow Margin or 38.62% according to Franks. (Some of this difference are the Defiants, Blenheims etc. which I didn't tally in the Franks figures.)

Added to these figures are the accuracy of aircraft types (a problem throughout the war to all sides) OKL awarded 712 Hurricane kills and 1243 Spitfire kills , Franks tallies to 470 Hurricanes and only 285 Spitfires. This would probably be attributed to the "desire" to shoot down the better aircraft. Claims were also awarded for some odd types, a continual reference to Hawks or Hawk-75's, a Radial engined aircraft totally different to any RAF fighter, some Morane's, a Bloch MB 151, and a Bregeut Bre693(more possible as this was close to the fall of France)

PART II

8th Air Force raids on Schweinfurt in 1943 are interesting, as are the victories awarded over Dieppe in August 1942

In 1943, the USAAF flew 2 raids on the German Ball Bearing plants at Schweinfurt, on 17 August, 376 B-17 Flying Fortress's were involved, USAAF losses were about 60 B-17's plus many which were scrapped upon landing. This was a loss rate of around 16%.
However, OKL awarded 94 B-17 and 4 P-47 Victories. Given the ability of the Luftwaffe to investigate the damage on the ground, how do they explain a 50% over claim.

On 14 October, a second raid was mounted, this was an even greater disaster in that of the 291 Bombers sent out, another 60 were destroyed in Combat, nearly 20% losses. But OKL was to excel and awarded 146 B-17 Kills, half of the attacking force, and once again it was within their ability to examine wreckage.

Both raids were intercepted outside Allied fighter cover, so the Luftwaffe Interceptors could operate without continual harassment, so how did they manage to have approved about 250 Kills as against actual losses of 120

THE WESTERN DESERT

An excellent work, Desert Warriors by Russell Brown covers the Desert Air Force Tomahawk & Kittyhawk Squadrons.
The Foreword is by Bobby Gibbes, a high scoring Australian pilot of the North African theatre.
"It was not possible for a Desert Pilot to have a victory confirmed without a witness. Our aircraft were not equipped with camera-guns, so we had no photographic record of combats fought. It was so difficult to get confirmation that on 1 occasion I did not bother to submit a sortie report even though I confirmed it myself afterwards when driving from the airfield at Bir Durfan to the area. I found the wreckage of the bf109 with the body of the dead pilot still inside…..

After the war I became a friend of Erhard Braune, ex commander of III/JG27. In a discussion with him on tactics etc, I asked why the claims of some Luftwaffe pilots appeared unrealistic as they DIDN'T ADD UP TO OUR KNOWN LOSSES.
He told me that these high claims 'HELPED THE MORALE OF THE GERMAN PEOPLES.

Some Cases:
15 September 1942
JG27 escorting Stukas intercept the attacking fighters and are awarded 19 Victories. 11 by I Gruppe, 1 by II Gruppe, 7 by III Gruppe
However, the P-40's intercepting this Stuka raid were put up by 239 Wing, 36 Kittyhawks from 250 Sqn , 3 RAAF, 450 RAAF, 112 Sqns . Only SIX Kittyhawks failed to return, one which was claimed to be shot down by friendly AA Fire. (2 losses from 250 Sqn, 2 from 3 Sqn, 1 each from 450 & 112 Sqns)

12 Oct 1941
Allied losses, 2 P-40's were shot down, 1 crashed on landing, 1 crashed inside Allied lines.
4 kills were awarded, 2 to Marseille, 1 to Sinner & Franzikest

30 Oct 1941
Allied losses of 2 P-40's and 1 damaged
4 kills awarded, 3 to Schulz, 1 to Schacht

22 May 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 missing and 1 crash landed at base.
5 kills awarded.

1 June 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 damaged
3 P-40's claimed, 1 Hurricane claimed despite not being present.


3 September 1942
2 P-40's shot down, 1 crash landed at base.
6 kills awarded, 3 to Marseille & 3 to Stahlschmidt (including a Spitfire, not present)

5 September 1942
2 Spitfires shot down, 1 P-40 shot down and 1 damaged
9 Kills awarded, 4 (All P-40) to Marseille, 2 to Stahlschmidt and 3 to Rodel

15 September 1942
5 P-40 shot down and 1 shot down by own LAA
7 kills for Marseille, 4 to Krainek, 3 to Schroer (incl Spitfire)2 for von Lieres and singles to Homuth, Bornger, Grube & Stuckler.


Russell Brown also states,

The inability of the German Fighter force to support its ground forces effectively, contrasted sharply with the evolution of the RAF's tactics and operational procedures as the Desert War progressed.
The tactical use of Medium Bombers, and the highly effective Kittyhawks which were able to offer direct support to the troops with their bombing and strafing was never matched by the Luftwaffe. The fact that many of the fighter pilots ran up big personal scores was irrelevant to the prosecution of the war and the undue emphasis placed on such achievements was an indication of the failure by German Commanders at all levels to understand the principles of Air Power.

(Of his "158 Victories, Marseille only claimed 3 Bombers, 1 Blenheim and 2 Marylands.)

DIEPPE 19 AUGUST 1942

One of the biggest air battles of the war, saw the RAF claim around 120 Kills against Luftwaffe losses of about 40

On the Luftwaffe side , claims awarded were 113, against Allied losses of about 100. This appears to be close until you look at the reason for the losses.
The RAF appears to have lost only 48 Aircraft in Air-Air Combat, with a further 14 Aircraft who failed to Return to Base (7 of these Mustang Ia on long range recce).
27 losses were said to be due to AA Fire.
Many Aircraft which did return to England were badly damaged and either destroyed on landing or faced lengthy rebuilds.
Th Luftwaffe claimed 105 Spitfires, but A-A losses were 34 Spitfire Vb, 2 Spitfire Vc, 2 Spitfire VI & 5 Spitfire IX, a total of 44.
(Not included in Luftwaffe claims was a Typhoon Ia of 266 Sqn shot down by a Spitfire!)
ps. It is possible that Allied losses should have added to them, 8 Spitfire V's of the USAAF which were lost on this day.

THE LONG OFFENSIVE FRANCE/ENGLAND & THE CHANNEL 1941

During 1941 the RAF began to turn the tide against the Luftwaffe, many raids were mounted over the French Ports and those Airfields within range of the RAF Fighters. These tactics saw a continual drain on RAF numbers, many experienced fighter pilots were lost for minimal return.

A small force of Luftwaffe fighters kept the RAF busy, scoring far more effectively than their opposite numbers. However the traditional Fighter Pilot quality of claiming victories continued.

Records show that the kills awarded to Luftwaffe pilots numbered nearly 1500. 850 of these for Spitfires, 100 for Hurricane, 161 Blenheim, 149 Wellington and 1 Lancaster??

However, RAF losses in air-air combat or "Failed to Return" by Fighter Command numbered about 505, Luftwaffe claims against similar models being 965. Of the 505 lost, 92 were Hurricane I or II and 412 Spitfire I, II or V.

Just as in the Battle of Britain, the days with few claims would bear reasonable resemblance, but many of the busier days saw excessive awarding of kills by a multiple of 3-4 times.
4/7/41 3 Lost, 11 Kills awarded.
7/7/41 2 lost, 11 awarded
23/7/41 10 lost, 37 awarded
12/8/41 7 lost, 23 awarded.

As well as these Air to air losses, the RAF suffered heavy losses to Flak and "other" operational causes. While heavy, the losses are bearable, the failure was in the inability to cause any substantial loss to the Luftwaffe or German Military installations.


Reference Sources
OKL reports at www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk
The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood & Derek Dempster
Test Pilot by Neville Duke
Bomber Command by Max Hastings
Horrido by Raymond Toliver & Trevor Constable
The Story of Air Fighting & Full Circle by J.E (Johnnie) Johnson
Fighter Pilots of the RAF 1939-45 by Chas Bowyer
Fighter Command Losses by Norman Franks
Hans Joachim Marseille by Kursowick
Fly for your Life (Stanford-Tuck)
Ace of Aces (Pattle)
Ginger Lacey - Fighter Pilot
The First to the Last - Galland
& too many others to note.

{note:there is more after this on the Luftwaffe's confirmation system}

http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarti...2luftwaffe.htm

Very interesting ain't it?

=S=

Lunatic

[delcyros]

Luftwaffe kills overrated? Yes, they are. As in other countries (Britain at BoB for example) or in other services. Kind of propaganda if you ask me (worst have been for tank vs tank and bomber vs. fighter kills as I know). But still one point has to be added:
Define "losses".
Losses are defined not commonly but for each country in an own way. For BoB for example a downed spitfire doesn´t mean necessarly a loss as long as some parts of the plane can be recovered. This is even more important for Africa.
Some US bombers, which have been forced to make emergancy landings behind russian lines in late 1944/1945 are missing in the losses, too.
I do agree in this, claims doesn´t reflect real losses 1:1. From the soviet side I have a number of Luftwaffe losses, also: 101.283 planes (!)
After a little digging, I found out that these numbers include all planes lost by enemy fire, accidents, bombings, trainings, testings and industrial misproductions. Plus it also includes damaged planes from 100% to 10 % and all planes beeing outdated and therefore scrapped or self destroyed. I expect that almost 95% of all Luftwaffe planes suffered minor damage at any time because of any reason during ww2. So, it should be worthy to find out what a "loss" specificly mean.

[Soren]

RG just as far out claims were made by the allies ! Actually the U.S. were some of the worst at making such claims !

[delcyros]

I disagree. In general spoken, the US claims show differences, but if you compare fighter claims you will find it hard to generally note overrated numbers. Most overrated numbers come from the bomber crews, which is a very general statistic appearence (for the RAF and Luftwaffe also, just compare at BoB how much Spits and Hurricanes lost by Heinkel, Junkers and Dornier fire...). Overratings did happen to the US also, sure, but most of it belongs to the bomber crews, which isn´t very surprising.
The claims for their fighters on the other hand are not as much overrated as you may think...

[Soren]

The system of confirming kills was actually more strict with the Germans ! Although the W-Allies had comparable confirming methods.

Just take a look at the U.S. kill claims during the early years against Japan ! They are absurd !

[trackend]

There really is only one claim that is irrefutable as nearly all others have been denied, dismissed or re-assesed at some time or another (including shipping,aircraft and human losses) by all sides. That is the final victors of the war having said that in the long term some people claim that the Axis country's came of better.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The system for confirming kills by the Luftwaffe was more strict then most but ofcourse they were overinflated just like everyone else. The RAF, USAAF, and the Soviets did it also. All in all I would say the allies lied more about what they lost then what they shot down. It was a moral issue plus they could not admit it to it, just like the Hitler could not admit defeat even until the very end.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but some were genuine mistakes for example 5 men might take a shot at a plane that's going down an they may all claim it as their won kill, so between them they think they've downed 5 planes when they've downed one.............

Originally Posted by Soren

The system of confirming kills was actually more strict with the Germans ! Although the W-Allies had comparable confirming methods.

Just take a look at the U.S. kill claims during the early years against Japan ! They are absurd !

Look at US fighter kills credited, it's far more accurate than Luftwaffe' figures. To get credit you needed to:

1) have guncam footage clearly showing a kill. Often this meant turning on the guncam and filming the wreckage on the ground.

2) have the plane hitting the ground, exploding, engulfed in flames, or the pilot bailing out witnessed by TWO witnesses (on some occassions one witness was deemed sufficient).

3) locate the wreckage.

Lots of "claims" were made, but that is not the same thing as what was finally credited. Many "kills" were revoked after the war was over.

The document above shows that the Luftwaffe' fully endorsed false claims as kills, and of course having lost the war they never had the chance to go back and rectify this. Had they not lost the war, who can say if they would or would not have?

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The system for confirming kills by the Luftwaffe was more strict then most but ofcourse they were overinflated just like everyone else. The RAF, USAAF, and the Soviets did it also. All in all I would say the allies lied more about what they lost then what they shot down. It was a moral issue plus they could not admit it to it, just like the Hitler could not admit defeat even until the very end.

Adler, USAAF (and USN) post-war reports accurately record all losses. What was reported to the public during the war is kinda irrelevant.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

but some were genuine mistakes for example 5 men might take a shot at a plane that's going down an they may all claim it as their won kill, so between them they think they've downed 5 planes when they've downed one.............

Hmm... if in order to record the kill you must either see it burst into flames, expload, crash into the ground, or the pilot bail out, how could this happen? Clearly the group would know that only one plane had gone in.

This might account for an occassional false kill claim - it does not account for 2-3:1 overclaiming.

=S=

Lunatic

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Look at US fighter kills credited, it's far more accurate than Luftwaffe' figures. To get credit you needed to:

1) have guncam footage clearly showing a kill. Often this meant turning on the guncam and filming the wreckage on the ground.

2) have the plane hitting the ground, exploding, engulfed in flames, or the pilot bailing out witnessed by TWO witnesses (on some occassions one witness was deemed sufficient).

3) locate the wreckage.

Lots of "claims" were made, but that is not the same thing as what was finally credited. Many "kills" were revoked after the war was over.

The document above shows that the Luftwaffe' fully endorsed false claims as kills, and of course having lost the war they never had the chance to go back and rectify this. Had they not lost the war, who can say if they would or would not have?

=S=

Lunatic

Point number 1) and 3) are false, and I know this ! Gun-camera footage wasnt at all needed to confirm a kill, but if it was available it would offcourse be used, the same goes for the Germans who also would use gun-camera footage as proof IF POSSIBLE.

One could easely locate wild U.S. claims aswell RG, and the guy who wrote your presented document is obviously very biased towards the Allies, and forgets varius key facts.

Btw RG if you don't want people to start thinking that your very biased towards the U.S., then you should stop making such posts like this one ! Your trying with all your might to make the Germans look like dishonest bastards who highly exagerate their scores, when infact their confirming methods were even more strict tha our own system of confirming kills at that time.

In the light of post-war investigation, it is now conceded that overclaiming occurred in every airforce. Mostly this was attributable in the heat and confusion of battle. Sometimes it was a case of genuine error - the retail of smoke emitted by a Bf-109 diving away at full throttle fooled many an Allied fighter pilot or air gunner into believing that his oppponent was mortally hit. Only in very rare instances was it a matter of deliberate deceit. And any pilot suspected of falsifying his victory claims was given very short shrift by his peers.
Each of the combatant airforces tried to regulate claims by a strict set of conditions. None more so than the Luftwaffe, wich required written confirmation of the kill by one or more arieal witnesses to the action, plus - if possible - back-up confirmation, also in writing from an observer on the ground. Given the amount of paperwork this engendered back at OKL in Berlin, it is little wonder that it could sometimes take a year or more for a pilot's claim to recieve official confirmation.

Source: John Weal who has written alot on the subject.

Originally Posted by Soren

Point number 1) and 3) are false, and I know this ! Gun-camera footage wasnt at all needed to confirm a kill, but if it was available it would offcourse be used, the same goes for the Germans who also would use gun-camera footage as proof IF POSSIBLE.

Soren - I did not mean to say that all 3 conditions need to be met, rather that any one of them had to be met.

As for the contention that Luftwaffe' kills were more accurate, it just does not hold water given the overclaiming that occured where the downed planes would be locatable on German soil.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Adler, USAAF (and USN) post-war reports accurately record all losses. What was reported to the public during the war is kinda irrelevant.

=S=

Lunatic

And why is that? Its still not the truth and having won the war whos to say they never rectified it, which I am sure they did not. Polotics comes into play everywhere not just in the Nazi regime. Sorry RG it goes both ways.

The Luftwaffe system was very accurate up until late 1944. I am sure there are many discrepencies in the Luftwaffe claims but it goes both ways.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And why is that? Its still not the truth and having won the war whos to say they never rectified it, which I am sure they did not. Polotics comes into play everywhere not just in the Nazi regime. Sorry RG it goes both ways.

The Luftwaffe system was very accurate up until late 1944. I am sure there are many discrepencies in the Luftwaffe claims but it goes both ways.

Kill were overclaimed by all sides. Losses however, were accurately recorded but often inaccurately reported during the war. Post-war inaccuracies in the loss data from the USAAF/USN and RAF were rectified because the data existed. For the Luftwaffe', much of such information was destroyed in the late part of the war.

Politics clearly played a huge role in Luftwaffe' kill credits too. Experten claims were "rushed through" where other pilots had to wait up to a year to recieve official credit. Marseille is a case in point, and it is clear from the document above that he was overclaiming by at least 2:1.

I agree all sides overclaimed, the point is that the contention that the Luftwaffe' overclaimed less than other air forces appears false - it appears they overclaimed at least as much. And no other air force motivated their pilots to overclaim as much as the Luftwaffe'.

=S=

Lunatic