Luftwaffe loses

[syscom3]

If there was one thing that made aircraft kills in the PTO so hard to verify was the planes would crash into the sea or into the jungle often with noone around to witness it or verify it (except for naval action near the fleets).

[lesofprimus]

And please remember, this thread is about Luftwaffe losses.......

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

How many kills did the Luftwaffe get in say the Meschersmitt? I bet a lot, especially on the Russian front.

[lesofprimus]

JG54 alone had over 10,000 kills.......

[Hop]

The following information is drawn from the Air Force Historical Research Agency.

Europe
P-51: 4,950 air claims and 4,131 ground claims.
P-47: 3,752 air claims and 3,985 ground claims.
P-38: 2,050 air claims and 1,164 ground claims.

I suspect those figures are for the ETO and MTO combined.

The USAAF statistical digest http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps5...operations.htm

gives a figure of 7,422 aerial kills by USAAF fighters in Europe. (The MTO claims amount to 3,300)

Similary, the ground kills in the ETO are given as 6,796, 1,364 in the MTO.

A search of the Air Force Historical Research Agency claims lists, filtering by ETO and WW2, gives 7,451 victory credits.

Overall the top scoring Allied fighter (excluding the V.V.S.) was the F6F Hellcat.

The Spitfire certainly seems to have recorded more claims (approx 6,800) in the ETO (and it was very active in the Med, and made some contibution in Russia and the far east.

As reagrds the RAF the best figure have been able to find is from the source 'RAF Fighter Command Victory claims Of WW2', which is incomplete. But it lists the Spitfire as the top RAF scorer with 3,470 air claims and 1,428 ground claims.

Sounds about right, but it's important to remember that Fighter Command was supplemented by 2nd TAF in 1943, and was largely relegated to home defence (with a huge reduction in strength). 2nd TAF made up most of Britain's fighter strength in 1944 and 1945, and was heavily involved in combat.

John Foreman in The Fighter Command War Diaries lists 10,736 aerial claims by the RAF fighter forces in Europe, with the Spitfire accounting for about 6,800 of them. That excludes MTO claims and most ground claims (which usually weren't recorded)

[Erich]

Truthfully not one air force during WW 2 has a confimred record of kills due to all the problems of idnetification, wingmen, faulty camera and films, air speed, weather ........... you name it there was always a problem.

JG 52 over 11,000 kills
JG 54 over 9,600 kills
JG 51 over 9,000 kills

on it goes, JG 27 had over 3500

Me 262 JG 7 states from too many sources over 400-450 kills but that is too high in my book, maybe 200-250

Originally Posted by Hop

John Foreman in The Fighter Command War Diaries lists 10,736 aerial claims by the RAF fighter forces in Europe, with the Spitfire accounting for about 6,800 of them. That excludes MTO claims and most ground claims (which usually weren't recorded)

Now that figure is interesting. First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF.

Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB. Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there. Mind you RAF claims over France in '41 and '42 were outrageously inflated.

It missed all the big fighter battles of late 1943 and throughout '44 (USAAF domain, particulary the P-51), which centred around the day bomber fleets. And whilst it was active over Europe from Late June '44 onwards it's range still limited it to front line action, rather than the deep penetration missions into Germany where the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighters operated from.

Does Foreman by any chance provide details of claims by month/year and or area of operation? Other than the general umbrella of Europe?

[Dac]

Originally Posted by Erich

Truthfully not one air force during WW 2 has a confimred record of kills due to all the problems of idnetification, wingmen, faulty camera and films, air speed, weather ........... you name it there was always a problem.

JG 52 over 11,000 kills
JG 54 over 9,600 kills
JG 51 over 9,000 kills

on it goes, JG 27 had over 3500

Me 262 JG 7 states from too many sources over 400-450 kills but that is too high in my book, maybe 200-250

During the BoB the RAF made no effort to verify pilot claims of downed aircraft, which is why their numbers are so far off from official Luftwaffe loses.

[Hop]

During the BoB the RAF made no effort to verify pilot claims of downed aircraft,

They used every source they could get to try to verify kills.

Firstly, they counted crashed aircraft. Between 8th August and 30th October they counted 529 German aircraft crashed on land.

They interogated German pilots they rescued from the sea. That identified another 97 losses.

They monitored German radio frequencies, and recorded reports of aircraft ditching in the sea. That gave them another 289 confirmed losses.

They studied other sources, like enigma etc, that identified another 79 losses.

In total, they identified 994 actual German losses that way.

However, they were aware that many German losses might be slipping through the net. If a Luftwaffe plane crashed at sea, and it's crew weren't recovered and didn't have time to send out a distress call, or the distress call wasn't picked up, the RAF wouldn't be able to record it. If it crashed in woodland, or in a marsh or bog, or a lake, or an out of the way location, it might not be recorded. If it crashed in France it wouldn't be recorded.

In total, the Luftwaffe lost just under 1,900 aircraft during the BoB, so despite their best efforts, the British only managed to identify about half of them.

which is why their numbers are so far off from official Luftwaffe loses.

Actually they aren't that far off. The RAF claimed 2,399 kills during the BoB (give or take a few), including losses to AAA and balloons, the Luftwaffe lost approx 1,900 aircraft (not all to the RAF, of course).

[Hop]

First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF.

It's still not a total shootdown figure from the RAF. It excludes kills by bombers, and all kills by forces operating outside Western Europe (Med, Far East etc). In short, it only includes fighters operating from the UK, France, the Low Countries and Germany.

Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB.

Well, the Spitfires scored pretty big from mid 1944 to the end of war. The rest of the time, 6,800 fighters in 68 months is 100 a month, or an average of just over 3 a day. Given that there were periods of much higher scoring, (BoB, Normandy etc), sustained higher scoring (from the end of Normandy to the end of the war), the average probably only needs 1 or 2 kills a day for the rest of the war.

Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there.

The fighting could still get quite heavy, providing escorts for the USAAF mediums, ingress and egress cover for the USAAF heavies, Crossbow attacks etc.

Just as an example, from a fairly quiet period, the last week of December 1943:

24th December. US raids on Crossbow targets. No claims. No RAF activity.

25th December. RAF sweep. 1 Fw 200. No USAAF activity.

26th December. No activity.

27th December. No activity.

28th December. RAF rhubarb. 1 Fw 190. RAF sweep. 1 He 177. No USAAF actvity.

29th December. No activity.

30th December. USAAF attack Ludwigshafen. 10 claims (mix of 190,109,Do17, 110 etc). RAF support, 1 190, 2 109s. RAF rodeo, 1 Ju 52

31st December. USAAF attacks airfields in France. 9 enemy fighters. RAF Spitfires provide support sweeps, 4 enemy fighters.

Total for the week:
USAAF 19
RAF 11

For a busier period, see for example the RAF escort of USAAF medium bombers, likes the 3rd November raid on Schipol, which saw the escorting Spitfires claim 10 German fighters (including Kurt Brandle, 180 kill ace)

Or 17th August, the Schweinfurt/Regensburg raids. RAF Spitfire support operations (both diversionary attacks and ingress/egress sweeps) accounted for 15 German fighters, night fighter and intruder attacks claimed another 9 aircraft.

1943 was actually a busy year for the Spits in Europe. JG 26 pilots killed and seriously injured by Spitfires:
1940 37
1941 54
1942 56
1943 96
1944 66
1945 43

And whilst it was active over Europe from Late June '44 onwards it's range still limited it to front line action, rather than the deep penetration missions into Germany where the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighters operated from.

Spitfire IX range in 1944, equipped with a single 90 gallon drop tank, was about 1,000 miles. That will take you as far as Bremen, Frankfurt, Hanover, Wurzburg and Stutgart from the Normandy beaches. From Brussels (liberated begining of September) it will take you into modern Poland (and back, of course)

Even from bases in Devon in 1944, Spitfire XIVs were able to sweep down as far as the Swiss border with drop tanks. (and none of these figures include the rear fuselage tanks that began to be fitted to Spitfires in this period)

And even without the range to get into Germany, the Luftwaffe were losing enormous numbers of fighters in France in the summer of 1944. From 6th June to 30th June, the Luftwaffe lost 931 aircraft on operations over France, and 250 on operations over Germany.

Does Foreman by any chance provide details of claims by month/year and or area of operation? Other than the general umbrella of Europe?

Yes, he provides a lot of details. I got the book from the library, though, so I can't look up the daily details (and it would take a long time, anyway).

But RAF Fighter Command Victory claims Of WW2, which you quoted as the source of the 3,470 claims for the Spitfire, only goes up to the end of 1943, doesn't it? Considering the enormous German losses in 1944 and 1945, it does seem to correlate to me.

Groehler's table of losses, which Caldwell and Butler reproduce on their web page, gives German losses in the West Jan - Oct 1944 as 8,100. Reich defence accounted for another 10,700. (both to all causes)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

How many kills did the Luftwaffe get in say the Meschersmitt? I bet a lot, especially on the Russian front.

The Ost Front accounted for so many kills it is not funny. Others have allready posted some figures for the individual staffeln or Geschwadern but just check out some of the pilots like Hartmann and that says a lot.

[Erich]

to throw a little twang into the August 17, 43 mission for day/eve ops :

US 8th AF reported an incredible amount of claims for both Schweinfurt and Regensburg : 288 kills for the bombers alone and another 19 kills by US P-47's. The Luftwaffe lost a total of 25 a/c

JG's 1, 2, 3, 26, 51, 54
NJG's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 ands training unit 101 The Bf 110G units lost to B-17 combats were 8 on this date, none to US or RAF fighters. At night on the 17/18th of August, 2 Bf 110G's to Beufighters, several to landing accidents . .

what's my point you say ? no singular archiv or source will give you exact totals of losses or victories - not even Tony Woods and he will tell you the same thing for the Luftwaffe. You have to cross check for every single day of combat, which in some cases is almost impossible due to the fact of lost records and incomplete (Luftwaffe Geschwader sources) - twin engine especially and the NJG which is almost entirely incomplete or lost during the war and afterward

[Erich]

let me post two more 1943/44 dates just to show how crazy the claiming system was in 43/early 44 for the bomber crews of the 8th AF . . . . and the craziness of the aerial engagements there-of

10 October 43 terrible battle over Münster:

Bombers claimed 183 Luftwaffe kills, for the losses of 30 bombers . Luftwaffe actually lost 27 fighters

14 October 43, the other Schweinfurt battle:

Bombers claimed some 186 Luftwaffe kills for losses of around 72 bombers . Luftwaffe lost 38 fighters

11 Janaury 44, Oschersleben, Halberstadt, Brunswick battle:

Bombers claimed some 228 Luftwaffe kills with 31 kills going to fighters in addition. over 60 bombers shot down. heavy rocket attacks by Bf 110G fighters destroy lead pathfinder and the 8th AF bomber missions seemed to head down stream from there .............

Luftwaffe lost 39 of it's 209 fighters engaged

a bloody day in the skies over Germany

[lesofprimus]

a bloody day in the skies over Germany

To say the least...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow interesting info there. I fly into Schweinfurt on a daily basis only and it kind of feels wiered to think that in that same space of air there was slaughter only 60 years prior.