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Luftwaffe Secret Projects 1939-1945

Aviation Discuss Luftwaffe Secret Projects 1939-1945 in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by delcyros I doubt that the US had any substantial knowledge about this plane prior to Korea. Very ...


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Old 07-26-2005, 11:01 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by delcyros
I doubt that the US had any substantial knowledge about this plane prior to Korea.
Very True!

From what I could remember it seemed at about 3Gs - 450 knots the ailerons started to buzz on the Mig-15 UTI (we were about 10000' above sea level)
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:50 AM   #77
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It's my bad memory. Had it the wrong way around I'm guessing and it was the F86 that could get supersonic in a dive and not the MiG. I think I read it whilst looking up an F100 once.

The part about the swept wings though was accurate to what I've read and heard though, that P86 engineers went back over the Me262 design and came out with the sweep without really knowing what results it would give (source was a taped interview on a documentary with test pilots and development personnel, mostly they were saying things like, "you have to remember we didn't have quite the same advanced wind tunnel and computer modelling technologies as we do today, ideas were built on and tried out and when they didn't work, sometimes test pilots were killed"), and the early Soviet jets were essentially their reinventions of German WW2 designs in the first place, primarily concerned with the race to get effective jet fighters into squadron service rather than any altruistic scientific advancements.
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:37 AM   #78
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The US if I recall did not take too much from the Me-262. They got most of there work from the Me-P.1101 which ended up being turned into the Bell X-5. This is where the US got a lot of there design work for the swept wing designs.
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:27 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet
The US if I recall did not take too much from the Me-262. They got most of there work from the Me-P.1101 which ended up being turned into the Bell X-5. This is where the US got a lot of there design work for the swept wing designs.
Where do you think the wings came from? The outer wings from the Me262 were used on the P.1101. See the tech description produced 14.12.44.

Mtt had also done much work with the Me262 HG II (35* sweep) and III (45* sweep).
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:05 AM   #80
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With regards to the Ju 390 Amerika Bomber accounts, let me say that I think there are, ummm, just a few
problems with this story . . .

According to William Green (Warplanes of the Third Reich), the usual source for the mission claim, it went
thusly: . . . In January 1944, the Ju 390 was assigned to Fernaufklaerungs-Gruppe 5 (Long-Range
Reconnaissance Group) at Mont de Marson south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju 390 carried
sufficient fuel for an endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from
Mont de Marson to a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base.

Okay, that is approximately 3960 miles one way, so figure 7900 miles, give or take, round trip. But according
to the information I can find, the range of the Ju 390 is given as being from 8000 km (4971 miles) up to
9700 km (6027 miles). My theory on the difference is based (1) on counting a safety factor in the lower
number into the higher number, typically calculated as .20 x fuel for range plus fuel for 45 minutes, and
(2) any additional auxiliary fuel tanks which could have been installed. In either case, the 6027 miles maximum
is somewhat short of 7900 miles.

So, that’s interesting. Now let’s see . . . * if * the Ju 390 could travel 7900 miles (about 12714 kilometers) and
the rated cruise speed was 347 km/hr, that works out to about 36.6 hours at cruise which exceeds the 32 hours
cited by Green. Further, that little calculation doesn’t begin to address fuel consumption, especially expended
climbing to altitude. And don’t forget that the first half mission from the vicinity of Bordeaux to the vicinity
of New York and return in the winter means bucking headwinds all the way in the outbound leg . . . doesn’t
do much for the fuel consumption, and can rob you of an average 20 to 25 percent efficiency in the right (or
wrong, depending on your point of view) conditions.

As near as I can find, the BMW 801 engine, at cruise, burned about 570 liters (150 gallons) of fuel per hour, or
for the 6 engine Ju 390, about 3,420 liters (900 gallons) an hour. For Green’s declared 32 hours of flight, not
counting climb out consumption, headwinds, and other vagaries, that’s some 109,440 liters of fuel. And of course,
109,440 liters of fuel is in the neighborhood of 28,795 gallons (US), which would weigh about 200,000 pounds.

But wait ... empty weight of the Ju 390 was 36,900 kilograms (81,350 pounds) and the fully loaded weight was
75,500 kilograms (166,448 pounds). And, of course, I didn’t even count the crew (10 - figure 75 kilograms each
or 750, their gear another 25 kilograms each or 250 kilograms or 1000 kilograms altogether) or oil (probably in
the neighborhood about 36 liters per engine or another 250 kilograms) factors of in the load out and I presume
the 1800 kilograms bomb payload wasn’t loaded.

So, figure:
Crew and incidentals: 2205 pounds
Oil: 480 pounds
Fuel for mission based on 32 hours of flight: 200,000 pounds
Total: 202685 pounds

less

Full Load weight: 166,448 pounds

Equals: 36,237 pounds over weight.

How do you suppose they got all that off the ground?

And they're going to fly into a coastal area that had near it some of the more important aircraft production
facilities, Grumman, at Bethpage on Long Island comes to mind, that had radar coverage and they're not going
to be detected? Only if they run the last hundred miles or so, in and out, at about 150 feet (wow, that would do
wonders for their fuel consumption, wouldn't it). And if you strip out defensive armament, cut crew size,
remove armor, and self-sealing tanks, what happens when you just happen to run into a patrolling PB4Y
loaded for bear. PB4Ys knocked down about 383 Japanese planes, included 95 twin and multi engine types,
and five German planes (a Do 217, an He 177, and three Ju 88's). One would be perfectly capable of ruining a
stripped down Ju 390's day. Are you willing to take that chance for what is essentially a one time stunt? And how
come one of the most efficient propaganda machines the world has ever seen never once mentioned this feat of
daring do?

Then, of course, there's the small matter of geography. Green reports that the turn around point was 12 miles
north of New York. As I understand the story his source was an interrogation transcript in an intelligence
report from 11 August 1944, detailing the questioning of captured German personnel. A prisoner, who claimed having
been photo assistant in Mont de Marsan, made this claim during his interview. Another prisoner, in the same
report, said that the Ju 390 "had an endurance of 32 hours".

Well, look at a map. The New York coastline runs roughly from ENE to WSW. "North" of New York, city or state,
doesn’t matter, is over land. Jeez, you think if they managed to get some 850 miles (half the distance in the above
noted range variance) beyond their rated roundtrip range and ended up somewhere just west of Long Island Sound
it would make a much better story. If they took pictures of the coast, they would have had do so as they crossed it or
to turn around to do so.

Remember, there were only two of these airplanes, V1 and V2. According to "Die großen Dessauer. Junkers Ju 89,
90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie" ("The Big Ones from Dessau. ... . History of an aircraft family")
by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, (note, I neither read, write, nor speak German, this summary translation was
provided by a friend) during the time period of this feat was supposedly accomplished, the lone Ju 390 V1 was in
Prague, arriving there on November 26th 1943. While at Prague, V1 was involved with a series of flight tests, flying
on Nov. 30th, and Dec. 2nd and 3rd. The flight on the 3rd was to Merseburg. V1 returned to Prague on Dec.
10th. More flights were made: on 17th, and again on 30th and 31st of December. Still more flights in January
1944, on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th. From January 17th to the 23rd, in-flight refueling tests were conducted with
a Ju 290. More tests for aerial refueling took place in through February and March in the Prague area. The
preoccupation with flight tests in the December, January, February and March time period would seem to knock
single prototype Ju 390 V1 out of contention for four weeks duty in FAGr 5 culminating in a side trip to New York..

And the Ju 390 V2? Well, there’s some question as to whether or not that particular aircraft was actually completed.
If it had, as near as I can find, it would not have been completed before September 1944, sometime after the mission
in question. Most sources that support the completion of this model indicate that the V2 wasn’t delivered until
January 1945. Further, FAGr 5 evacuated from Monte de Marsan on August 20, 1944. So, built too late (if at all)
and could not have possibly launched from Monte de Marsan.

Further, there's a fellow, whose name escapes me at the moment, Peter something or other, but he's out there in
cyberspace somewhere, who has researched extensively on FAGr 5 and who says no record of this event exists.

With the wrong information even an otherwise reputable historian, such as Green, can make a mistake. Take a
look at Eric Hammel's Pacific Air War Chronology for the TF-38 strike results on 28 July 1945. Claims some 133
USN planes lost to AAA fire during attacks on the remaining Japanese capital ships in the Kure area. Absolute
and total hogwash. Similar error appears in Clark Reynold's The Fast Carriers ... could they be feeding each other?
Similarly a recently published book by popular oral history writer, Gerald Astor, entitled Wings of Gold, on the US
naval air war in the Pacific devotes whole pages to complete fabrications. Checking facts would have prevented
mistakes. Maybe Green should have looked a little deeper.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the light fixture, so maybe someone else ought to run the
numbers and see how they come out. I'm willing to be wrong, but I just don't see how this flight could have happened
the way it is described. I'd suggest that there was, maybe, a plan to try to see how close they could get. A plan with a
lot of wishful thinking involved (not unusual for the those folks, especially as events became more and more unpleasant
for them) that never got off the ground when the rational thinkers on the pointy end of the stick looked at it.

You might want to look at a short discussion of flights to China, Manchuria, Japan, or what have you, at
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/ju290_...huria_1944.htm

You can look at aircraft assigned to FAGr 5. I don’t see a Ju 390, do you?
http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/fagr5.htm


Regards,

Rich
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Old 07-30-2005, 11:13 AM   #81
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Yes, if I recall correctly, the P.1101 wings are normal Me-262 serial prosuced wings with modifications for connecting with the fuselage.
But I think, what Adler also mentioned was that the P-1101 was avaiable for the US, they could study it more in detail (in order to understand the benefits and shortcomings of the swept back wing), while the 45 degrees swept back Me-262 HG-III was still in construction stage at wars end and the Me-262 HG-II, while completed (Werknummer 111 53, was unfortunately destroyed in a ground accident in early 1945. It should be noted that the US had some knowledge on their own research projects. There are documents which can proove that US scientists in early 1945 wrote an article to analyse Busemanns article about Pfeilflügeleffekt und die Herauschiebung der kritischen Geschwindigkeit (1937).
In the end it wasn´t successive because of the known shortcomings of the swept back wing design (which could be overcome with -for example- Me-262 slats, wing boundary layers and so on).
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Old 07-31-2005, 01:39 PM   #82
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Two nice 3d pics of the Point defense interceptor Bachem Natter.



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Old 07-31-2005, 01:51 PM   #83
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well i doubt the concept would work but she cirtainly was an interesting design.............
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Old 07-31-2005, 01:52 PM   #84
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It might have been a great plane with phenomenal flight characteristics. Trouble is barely anyone who flew it lived to talk about it
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Old 07-31-2005, 02:08 PM   #85
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This aircraft is like a combination of a B2, Galaxy and B36


Messerschmitt Me P.08.01



http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep08.html

This forum compares it to the craft seen in Indiana Jones and the raiders of the lost ark

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=453878


http://www.indianajones.com/meta/exp...31014_2_bg.jpg
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Old 07-31-2005, 03:10 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcyros
Yes, if I recall correctly, the P.1101 wings are normal Me-262 serial prosuced wings with modifications for connecting with the fuselage.
But I think, what Adler also mentioned was that the P-1101 was avaiable for the US, they could study it more in detail (in order to understand the benefits and shortcomings of the swept back wing), while the 45 degrees swept back Me-262 HG-III was still in construction stage at wars end and the Me-262 HG-II, while completed (Werknummer 111 53, was unfortunately destroyed in a ground accident in early 1945. It should be noted that the US had some knowledge on their own research projects. There are documents which can proove that US scientists in early 1945 wrote an article to analyse Busemanns article about Pfeilflügeleffekt und die Herauschiebung der kritischen Geschwindigkeit (1937).
In the end it wasn´t successive because of the known shortcomings of the swept back wing design (which could be overcome with -for example- Me-262 slats, wing boundary layers and so on).
Well I stand corrected. That I did not know.
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"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:00 AM   #87
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A point most people seem to overlook is that the Volksjager fighters didn't have any pilots good enough to fly them, that is if the Germans could find the materials, fuel, ammo etc.
So good design didn't seem to matter at that point.

As for Britains answer?

Well I think the Merlin engine with Riley cylinder heads would've kicked butt!
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:25 PM   #88
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I dont really think the Luftwaffe lacked pilots to fly them. They had so many great pilots that survived the war. I think the fact that Germany lost all of its good pilots is over exagerated. Now the issue with Fuel was the major is issue.
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fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:31 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet
I dont really think the Luftwaffe lacked pilots to fly them. They had so many great pilots that survived the war. I think the fact that Germany lost all of its good pilots is over exagerated. Now the issue with Fuel was the major is issue.
As Eric pointed out, 58 of 108 of the very best German pilots survived the war, and the best are already beating the odds to be the best. The 75% that fill most of the airforce it may be another matter. The AAF counts 13,623 German planes shot down. Assuming 50% (a number that I think is unrealisticly high), got out and fought another day, 6,811 pilots were lost. These numbers are AAF only and exclude losses from training, wounds, accidents, colisions and other causes.

Including Bomber pilots the Luftwaffe had what 3,500 experianced pilots in '41/'42, the chances that a majority of these lived through the war are slim.

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Old 08-11-2005, 12:15 PM   #90
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Yes but I would not make that the major limiting factor for the Luftwaffe.
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