Luftwaffe Secret Projects 1939-1945

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 01:33 PM

I am currently reading a book called Luftwaffe Secret Projects Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick and Ingolf Meyer.

Here is an excert from the book.

Reichsmarschal Hermann Goering was so convinced in 1940 that his Luftwaffe was invincible that he decreed that only refinements of exsisting types need be considered - there was no need for more research and development, the war would be short and sharp. The Battle of Britain and the flawed invasion of the Soviet Union changed all that. Germany needed all the technological muscle it could muster. From mid-1941 onwards the brakes were off and some of the finest minds in aerodynamics turned there thoughts to war-winning fighters of a new generation.

Momentum was gained at an incredible pace, moving through advanced piston engined designs to produce jet fighters using aerodynamic concepts that the Allies seemed unable to match. Thankfully, the time-lag generated by the German leadership allowed little in the way of hardware to appear operationally by 1945.

Now with this in mind, what do you think about how this would have changed the war had Goering and the Nazi leadership allowed this research to continue at a decent pace before 1941. Keep in mind many of the German designs originated early in the war and even the Me-262 and the 163 could have been operationally sooner had this mistake not been made. Also feel free to discuss any of these designs that you may know of.

evangilder · 06-13-2005, 01:43 PM

Interesting. I did not know about that. Seeing how the German technological advances were nothing short of incredible, it would indeed be interesting to see what would have come out of it has the brakes not been applied to the advancements.

FLYBOYJ · 06-13-2005, 01:46 PM

Interesting, love the pic!

cheddar cheese · 06-13-2005, 01:55 PM

Im sure that certain planes that almost made it (Ho-229, Ta-183 etc) would have made it if this was the case. The Allies would have had some serious problems on their hands....

Erich · 06-13-2005, 01:56 PM

something along the lines of the post, Our book will cover the secret Me 262B-2 which was futher along than the drawing board. We have unpublished cutaways/schematics from Germany, including pics of the bird as it progressed during it's night fighter prototypes..... Had it been available the RAF would of been in a sore spot and the possible dream of taking out 1-2 bomber groups in an aerial defence assault may have been a reality

evangilder · 06-13-2005, 01:57 PM

Dark nights would follow for the RAF if that had happened. Would it have sped up British jet development?

Erich · 06-13-2005, 02:09 PM

tough call for the RAF. The Lancaster crews swore they saw Me 262's in December of 44. Kommando Welter did not get going till Janaury of 45 and only chased the Mossie of the LSNF and these guys never knew what hit them and not till after the war were they aware that the Germans had jets on the look for them. The Mossie crews thought they were impermiable to interception

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 02:11 PM

Aha I see this thread is already starting some good conversation. I see some good debates coming up!

As for the British, I believe it would have sped up some things for the British. Interestingly though there were German designs as early as 1941 that were 10 years ahead of anything that the Allies could come up with.

At the Volta Conference in Rome that took place from Sept 30 to Oct. 6, 1935 where some of the worlds leading aerodynamicists were in attendence ie. Willie Messerschmitt, Kurt Tank, etc. a Dr. Adolph Busemann gave to light his ideas about Swept Wing designs for the reduction of drag at high speeds. He proved his theory to them by mathematical means. However many did not even take notice of him....

Within the years to follow the German designers produced designs with swept, cresent, and even delta wings. Aircraft made of different materials and with or without tails. Many of these desings influenced aircraft in the 1950's and 1960's.

I am going to continue reading the book and post some info on the Engine designs that the Germans were coming up with for there projects also.

Erich · 06-13-2005, 02:17 PM

I can only respond from my data/interests back in the 1960's on German night fighter jet development. there was alos a revamped Ar 234 to be used in the fast night time bombing role. The Luftwaffe had already put the nix on the Schlacht schnell-bomber 262 idea, the reason why for nearly 3/4's of the jet bombers ops they flew anti-bomber missions and paid for it.

the 262B-2 was of course the reharnessed Me 262B-1a/U1.

The B-2 was to have an enclosed AI radar set and the latest radar gizmos all enclosed. A new jet engine-fuel systems aerodynamically fitted. swept back wings, a possible third crew member ~ why I haven't got the text to support the rason yet. the fuel tanks were twice the size and enclosed so no more forward outside held drop tanks which was a total detriment to the opearational B-1a/U1 craft which was garbage in my opinion......

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 03:47 PM

Well as always your info is always very interessting and full of knowledge so throw it out there Erich.

kiwimac · 06-13-2005, 04:00 PM

Certainly the Germans had the HE 280 by 1941, that one would have been a very nasty surprise for the allies.

Kiwimac

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 04:26 PM

It sure would have.

As I said before I would post some engine projects of the Luftwaffe that may have appeared in these aircraft.

BMW 109-018
Thrust - 7,490

Jumo 109-012
Thrust - 6,170

I am still doing research on these engines however this might shed some light into how powerful some of these aircraft would have turned out.

delcyros · 06-13-2005, 04:40 PM

I always wondered why the RLM pushed so much flawed designs. The He-280 is not that bad, but it would depend on the HeS-008 radial jet engine, which wasn´t produced in numbers. Why it could be also fitted with either BMW-003A or Jumo-004A/B it´s performance would be decreased also. The decision to take the more advanced Me-262 into production is maybe right but why it never got the Heinkel ejection seat I will never understand.
Even some of the ´46 fighter planes were highly flawed:
Ju-EF 128, the air intake was a risk, wing geometry is suspect to be unstable (esspeccially without tail)
Ta-183, while a good design it´s wing without slats and wing boundary layers as well as the high set tail is expected to have very worse low speed handling (and good high speed handling)
The He-343 as well as the Ju-287 are looking quite promising, just as the Me-P1101 looks.
The best offensive jet plane in my view would be the Ar-234 C, but only 14 of these fast jets have been produced beside of some prototypes.
The best defensive could be the He-162 against fighters (also allied jet fighter) and the Me-262 against bomber.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2005, 04:45 PM

Interesting post. It is also interesting how the RLM prefered the making of different varients and modifications (literally hundreds for the Bf-109) rather then make these advanced designs.

delcyros · 06-13-2005, 04:46 PM

BMW-018 and Jumo-012 are very heavy jet engines. From both at least the BMW-018 was made but never flew.
Fighter planes would depend on lighter jet engines like HeS-011 or Jumo-004E(with afterburner). In this particular field the allies had an advantage with the J-33 or Dervent V radial engines. The Jumo-004H would be a close contender. Strange that the RLM did not pushed the development of the DB-007 axial jet engine. With a second stage turbine and less 4 stages compressor the engine would make more thrust for a lower weigth.