Marseille's last

Jan · 12-06-2006, 03:34 PM

Hello,
This is my first post here and I am happy I can be here. I have listed for some time the forum and did not find what I want to ask. But maybe it is there somwhere, so I am sorry if it has already been dicussed. In this case please redirect me to the right thread if you can.
So...My question is WHO was that brave british Spitfire pilot who fell as the last victim for Hans Joachim Marseille on 26 September 1942? When Marseille finally landed after that amazing long duel, he was near the state of collapse and expressed his feelings as "what a masterfull adversary"!
When I thought of this, this must have been any excellent dogfighter of the similar level as Jochen. But if it was any really famous pilot I guess I would know who he was. How is than possible the pilot of his abilities was not any british hero with as much victories as Marseille? And this is even valid question in general...How is it possible that the best of Allies reached approximatelly four times less scores than the best of the Germans?
Again sorry if this was discussed, I guess the second part of my post was discussed for sure, but I have not found any satisfactory answer yet.
Thank you very much and best regards
Jan.

Chingachgook · 12-06-2006, 03:54 PM

It was a rookie pilot. Just that the Spitfire was so amazing...

sorry I could not resist!

Jan · 12-06-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

It was a rookie pilot. Just that the Spitfire was so amazing...

sorry I could not resist!

That day Marseille is credited for two other Sptifires and above all Bf109F(or G) in Marseilles's hands was much better combination than rookie pilot in Spitfire.

R-2800 · 12-06-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

How is it possible that the best of Allies reached approximatelly four times less scores than the best of the Germans?

The Allies did not have as many victories becasue after so many flight hours/missions they would rotate home. The Germans however never rotated home they flew till they died or were seriously injured

Chingachgook · 12-06-2006, 05:29 PM

Jan,

I was kidding.
I know of the fight - the Spits were not the only planes he was fighting at the time. The Spits had jumped him and his wingman. He was going slower and forced the Spits to overshoot their attack.
I think that the spits might have been from the Polish squad (?) was it 303? (or did Polish come latter with XI?).
There was some question about the wingmans envolvement in downing the 3Spits? Didn't the wingman get one of them?
Marseille had just been mixing it up with Stocky Edwards' squadron of P-40s. I think the exhaustion came from the fight with the P-40s? The spits where downed in rapid succession if memory serves(?).

I did not know that this was his last combat.

Jan · 12-07-2006, 04:01 AM

Hello Chingachgook,
First of all thank you very much for your reply.
It seems like you talk of different battle and I guess I know which battle you mean. You perhaps mean 8 February 1942 when MArseille was jumped by seven Curtiss' just when he was landing and managed to shot down three of them before eyes of all over his own arfield? This was really another of Marseille's excellent exploits.
But I mean different battle: 26 September 1942, Marseille was part of 33Bf109s which escorted Stukas for a raid. Than in the low altitude appeared six Spitfires and Marseille attacked in incredibly steep dive. His wingman was Schlang and he reported first Spitfire going down in 16:56 and the another in 16:59, both of them destroyed by Marseille.
Which Squadron of they were remains enigma for me and the identification of the pilots is even more comlicated.
Does anyone have a list of Allies casualties on 26 September 1942? This would be appreciated!
Thanks.

Erich · 12-07-2006, 09:48 AM

according to the I./JG 27 logbooks via Dr. Jochen Prien, the Star of Afrika destroyed:

1 P-40

6 Spitfires from 09.13 to 17.10 hrs

26.09.42

Jan · 12-07-2006, 10:11 AM

Thank you Erich,
Strange my source says:
Spitfire 9:10
Hurricane: 9:13,
Hurricane: 9:15,
Spitfire: 16:56,
Spitfire: 16:59
Spitfire: 17:15??? <-- who is he

But this discrepancy is not as much important for me now. The last one is the man I would very like to know. He fell from 100 meters in falmes and died.

Erich · 12-07-2006, 10:19 AM

log books can be deceiving as ID during daylight combat with all the chaos can be rough. really who cares as long as the enemy is shot down and cannot get up again to fight you or your Kameraden.

as to Allied losses not sure, maybe a question(s) on 12 o'clock high discussion board or LEMB ?

syscom3 · 12-07-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

How is it possible that the best of Allies reached approximatelly four times less scores than the best of the Germans?

Another reason is the allies eventually had so high a numerical superiority, the chances of any given allied pilot of having an opportunity to mix it up with an axis pilot, became slimmer as the war progressed.

There are several allied aces that did have a kill ratio compared to the number of times combat was entered that was comparible to many of the top Luftwaffee pilots.

Chingachgook · 12-07-2006, 05:46 PM

syscom3,

Who?

thanks,

Chingachgook · 12-07-2006, 05:47 PM

Jan,

Someone was claiming spits when they were Hurries?

delcyros · 12-07-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

syscom3,

Who?

thanks,

The South African Marmaduke Thomas St. John Pattle is at least as good.
He had a brief career in the difficult time of 1940 and 1941 over Libya, Greece and Crete. Despite flying Gloster Gladiators biplanes in No. 80 squadron and later Hawker Hurricane´s, he was probably the top scoring ace of the western allies during ww2. Officially credited only with 25 victories at time of his death (not included unconfirmed claims), recent analysis of claims and losses show that he finalled something between 35 and 45 (some say up to 52) kills against german and italien air forces.
He started late with his first aerial victory on 4th of august 1940 and was killed in action half a year later on 20th april 41 by Me-110´s, which caught him by surprise in the heat of a dogfight.

syscom3 · 12-07-2006, 06:32 PM

Robert Johnson (56th FG) would have scored in the hundreds had he stayed flying untill the end of the war (assuming there were enough LW planes flying).

I think Johnnie Johnson also had the potential to score really high.

Jan · 12-08-2006, 04:01 AM

Chingachgook,

It's really possible that some of claimed Spits were in fact Hurricanes or vice versa. Pilots were known for not precise identification of their claims and as was mentioned here the reason is clear.
But for sure the las combat between Marseille and Mr. 'Unknown' was duel Bf109 vs. Spitfire. In this time Marseille had plenty of time to see his adversary. That duel lasted about fifteen minutes or more and would be even longer had Marseille had enough fuel.