Marseille's last

[Hop]

Someone was claiming spits when they were Hurries?

The Luftwaffe seemed to have a lot of trouble telling them apart

In the Battle of Britain, the German fighters claimed 714 Hurricanes, 1,238 Spitfires. Actual RAF losses were 605 Hurricanes, 388 Spitfires (to all causes, not just fighters).

Apart from the level of overclaiming, the Jagdwaffe ratio of Spitfire kills to Hurricane kills was 1.73/1, whereas the actual loss rate was 0.64/1

It's been termed "Spitfire snobbery". The Luftwaffe didn't rate the Hurricane, so a victory over one wasn't considered much of an achievement.

[Chingachgook]

I was just reading some combat reports from 1942, on one particular date LW claimed 12 Spits down over France. RAF had lost zero aircraft on the date. I will try to find details again (no guarantee on my memory!). Why would these things happen - I'm sure Allied pilots did the same...

RAAF over Dawin - big claims by Spit pilots over Zeros. Post war JP loss records showed claims were over in a big way (see Alfred Price). Fog of war can account for some, but not all of this.

[delcyros]

You will need to define a loss and a kill if You compare it that way.
For the RAF a loss isn´t a loss.
It depends on the degree of damage.
For the Luftwaffe, a kill could be claimed once the enemy plane hit the ground, and eyewitnesses and / or footage confirms this. Simplicistically spoken.
For the RAF this wasn´t considered a loss to the archive as long as the planes damage was below 80% and the plane was recoverable. As most of the dogfights did take place over england, any Spit forced landing caused by fighter vs fighter damage usually would become a kill in the Luftwaffe records while it only sometimes becomes a loss in the RAF records. Such comparisons aren´t easy as I had to learn...

Beware, not wanting to say there were no overclaims from both sides - hell - that would be wrong!

[Hop]

The RAF had 3 damage categories at the time of the BoB. They were:

Cat 1: minor damage, repaired by the squadron mechanics

Cat 2: major damage, repaired at a repair depot.

Cat 3: beyond economic repair/did not return/salvaged for parts. Cat 3 was recorded as a loss.

That broadly conforms to the Luftwaffe loss records, where more than 60% damage was recorded as a loss, less than 60% was not a loss, even if the plane force landed.

Regardless of the rate of overclaims, it doesn't change the fact the Jagdwaffe claimed almost twice as many Spitfires as Hurricanes, whereas the RAF actually lost almost twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires (and there were similar proportions of Spitfires and Hurricanes involved in the battle)

[delcyros]

Regardless of the rate of overclaims, it doesn't change the fact the Jagdwaffe claimed almost twice as many Spitfires as Hurricanes, whereas the RAF actually lost almost twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires (and there were similar proportions of Spitfires and Hurricanes involved in the battle)

Are You sure for this? I ask because at BoB we have the additional problem that the claims of the LUFTWAFFE also include bomber and zerstörer claims, which because of their nature generally tend to overclaim a lot. You speak of Fighter claims, that´s something really different, and I am not aware of any claim analysis to seperate Jagdwaffe claims from the other Luftwaffe claims at BoB.
However, I am open for everything new.

That broadly conforms to the Luftwaffe loss records, where more than 60% damage was recorded as a loss, less than 60% was not a loss, even if the plane force landed.

Not really. The difference is area of fight. A forced landing of a Me-110, beeing 45% damaged into channel or worse- on england would not be recoverable and therefore be a loss anyway. A forced landing of a Hurricane beeing 45% damaged on england could be recoverable as long as the damage was <80% and wouldn´t be a kill, altough it would correctly occur in the german claim listings. Naturally during BoB, all fights except for very few were located over England or in direct proximity to english coast, giving the RAF some advanatage as they (unlike the Luftwaffe) could recover planes beeing more heavily damaged.
Not wanting to say that is unbalanced- it just reflects the tactical advantage enjoied by the RAF at BoB (the Luftwaffe had a similar advantage during 41 and 42 in France). Back to the claim analysis, I just wanted to outline that RAF losses AND damages have to be studies in detail to allow a justified statement of the claim-loss relation.

regards,

[Twitch]

JG 27 was regularly outnumbered by Kittyhawks, Spits and Hurris making for insense melees. One of Marsielle's wingmen, Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt who went MIA on Spptember 7th, wrote of a few hard fights outnumbered.

Marsielle scored his big feat on Spetember 1st with 17 kills in 3 sorties. In my research of Marsielle I have found no comment stating that on the 26th he faced a very tough opponent. I'll have to pour over my materials once more but 4 days later he became a legend when he bailed from his G with mechanical problem and never opened his chute.

[Jan]

Originally Posted by Twitch

In my research of Marsielle I have found no comment stating that on the 26th he faced a very tough opponent. I'll have to pour over my materials once more.

Thanks Twitch I appreciate.

[Hop]

Are You sure for this? I ask because at BoB we have the additional problem that the claims of the LUFTWAFFE also include bomber and zerstörer claims, which because of their nature generally tend to overclaim a lot. You speak of Fighter claims, that´s something really different, and I am not aware of any claim analysis to seperate Jagdwaffe claims from the other Luftwaffe claims at BoB.

Tony Wood's claims lists are at http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

You'll have to import them into a spreadsheet to get a breakdown of kills by type (eg Spitfire, Hurricane), but the claims for the BoB are from the Jagdwaffe only.

Note, though, that the claims lists are not complete, for example only 1 of Marseille's claims from the BoB period is listed, so this actually understates Jagdwaffe claims to some extent.

[Chingachgook]

“Circus 108B” was flown on 13 October (1941) when 18 Blenheim Mk.IVs of 2 Group attacked industries at Marzingarbe at 13:50. The bombers were escorted by 10 squadrons, flying 119 sorties and claiming five victories and two damaged for the loss of two Spitfires and one Hurricane.
609 Squadron took off with twelve Spitfires from Biggin Hill at 13:24 as part of the High-Cover Wing. At 14:15 Flying Officer J. A. Atkinson claimed a damaged Bf109F in the Marzingarbe-Hardelot area at 20,000 feet. Five minutes later Offenberg claimed a second damaged Bf109F at the same altitude, 10 miles north-west of Le Touquet. 609 Squadron landed back at base at 15:35. It seems that they were engaged by Bf109s from JG 2 and JG 26 which claimed 20 Spitfires and two Blenheims between 14:32 and 15:40 in the Channel area during the two Circuses that was flown during the afternoon.

[delcyros]

Originally Posted by Hop

Tony Wood's claims lists are at http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

It will take a while to compile this but thanks, Hop, it´s a great link!