Me-262 performance

[Soren]

Me-262 performance chart, showing the difference in climb rate from a starting weight of 6,897 kg and 5,700 kg. (5,700 kg time to climb is calculated!) Enjoy!

[Evil_Merlin]

What exactly is the Jumo C? I know the 004-C was was a much improved 004-A with increased thrust, backup fuel injection system and even an afterburner.

Since the "real" Me-262 was fitted with the 004B-1 or 004B-3, how do they relate to the Jumo C?

[Arneken]

It would be more fun is you could compare it with the ME-109 and to see the difference but this is nice too.

Well you can't blame the Germans of not doing there best with airplanes, off course to bad (or luckely) they didn't had the opportunity to employ them (Me-262) tottally.

greetings.

[magnocain]

Pretty much all that I know is that is was very fast and it couldn't turn very fast...

[Soren]

The Me-262 turns very well at high speeds, having much higher energy retention than any piston engined fighter. The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.

Now regarding the chart,

The performance is with the Jumo 004C which is the improved version of the 004B with better throttle control an abit extra thrust, 1.2 kN to be exact. However the Jumo 004D which was actually ready to be used BEFORE wars end was even better at 10.3 kN, and would've given the Me-262 performance higher than on that chart.

The Performance on the chart is very similar to that of the Std. Me-262A-1a with its Jumo 004B engine and with a take off weight of 6400 kg, while performance at 5700 kg would be slightly lower.

[Evil_Merlin]

But the Jumo 004C didn't make it into production, it was a paper/prototype only engine. So is the entire graph just projected performance?

Also the 004D had been tested and was ready to enter production, but never did.

The C and D provided the same amount of thrust per pound, around 1.41 lbf/lb. So while the D provided a bit more power it was also nearly 70lbs heavier, for 77 more lbf of thrust.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

But the Jumo 004C didn't make it into production, it was a paper/prototype only engine. So is the entire graph just projected performance?

It is projected performance based on performance runs already made with the Jumo 004B.

Also the 004D had been tested and was ready to enter production, but never did.

Did I say otherwise?

The C and D provided the same amount of thrust per pound, around 1.41 lbf/lb. So while the D provided a bit more power it was also nearly 70lbs heavier, for 77 more lbf of thrust.

The extra weight matters little, esp. when it comes to speed, where the Jumo 004D would give better performance. Climb rate would also increase slightly.

[delcyros]

Originally Posted by Soren

The performance is with the Jumo 004C which is the improved version of the 004B with better throttle control an abit extra thrust, 1.2 kN to be exact. However the Jumo 004D which was actually ready to be used BEFORE wars end was even better at 10.3 kN, and would've given the Me-262 performance higher than on that chart.

The Performance on the chart is very similar to that of the Std. Me-262A-1a with its Jumo 004B engine and with a take off weight of 6400 kg, while performance at 5700 kg would be slightly lower.

The Jumo -004C was a project engine, not actually build or tested. The afterburner jet engine tested before VE-day was the Jumo-004E. The -E was basically an improved -004D with 1000 Kp thrust (1.200 Kp with reheat). The Jumo-004D was in serial production by wars end, but: it´s rated thrust was limited to 930 Kp (=9.1 KN). (Compare H.J. Nowara, die dt. Luftrüstung, Vol. 4, page 115 or Anthony L. Kay, german jet engines). The projected performance chart of Jumo-004C driven Me-262´s has 36.6% more thrust avaiable than the std. Me-262.
The Jumo-004E was in the process of tooling up for mass production but it isn´t clear if the reheat was kept or not. Most Me-262 projected performance charts seem to refer to the 1000 Kp rated Jumo-004E:

[Soren]

Here's a chart showing actual tested performance with the Jumo 004B in service.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

The extra weight matters little, esp. when it comes to speed, where the Jumo 004D would give better performance. Climb rate would also increase slightly.

???

Have you ever flown a real plane before?

Every ounce matters. Every single ounce, and it all impacts performance from speed to rate of climb, corner speeds and the whole gamut.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by delcyros

The Jumo-004D was in serial production by wars end, but: it´s rated thrust was limited to 930 Kp (=9.1 KN). (Compare H.J. Nowara, die dt. Luftrüstung, Vol. 4, page 115 or Anthony L. Kay, german jet engines).

Everything I have read shows the D to only had passed all testing and was ready to enter serial production, but didn't do so before V-E day. Also the data points I have show the D to be limited to 10.3 kN not 9.1Kn.

The info I have on the E show it to be a modified D for better performance at altitude.

[delcyros]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

Everything I have read shows the D to only had passed all testing and was ready to enter serial production, but didn't do so before V-E day. Also the data points I have show the D to be limited to 10.3 kN not 9.1Kn.

The info I have on the E show it to be a modified D for better performance at altitude.

What is the source of Your datas? The -D4 according to it´s operating manual was a serial Jumo-004B4 with improved air intake and some Chromadur elements replaced by Tinadur. Of course, the engine could be overloaded in theory to 10KN (as was the Jumo-004A) but "Werkseinstellung" was limited to 8.700 rpm, which would yield identic settings as the Jumo-004B4. From what Nowarra writes, the Jumo-004D4 was "standing" in mass production along with the Jumo-004B4 at wars end, altough it appears that few if any -004D found their way into Me-262´s and I believe one was installed into a He-162 M prototype, indicating that mass production was very recent.

best regards,

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Evil_Merlin

???

Have you ever flown a real plane before?

Every ounce matters. Every single ounce, and it all impacts performance from speed to rate of climb, corner speeds and the whole gamut.

LoL, yes I have but I sincerely doubt that you have if you believe 25 kg alters anything let alone that every ounce matters!

Yes climb rate is affected, but speed not even close to as much! Fact is you'd have to have a very large increase in weight to get any meaningful negative effect on the speed of a/c this size & weight. A 25 kg increase in weight is going to have exactly ZERO effect on the speed of the a/c and pretty much the same with climb rate!

These are real a/c buddy, not RC models

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by Soren

LoL, yes I have but I sincerely doubt that you have if you believe 25 kg alters anything let alone that every ounce matters!

Yes climb rate is affected, but speed not even close to as much! Fact is you'd have to have a very large increase in weight to get any meaningful negative effect on the speed of a/c this size & weight. A 25 kg increase in weight is going to have exactly ZERO effect on the speed of the a/c and pretty much the same with climb rate!

These are real a/c buddy, not RC models

Um, I'm well aware these are real aircraft. I've been a private pilot for over 26 years now. I'm very aware of the difference 25kg can make in the flight characteristics of an aircraft.

If you think 25kg doesn't matter, then its quite clear you've never flown a full scale aircraft in any role with the exception of a passenger or dead weight.

[Evil_Merlin]

Originally Posted by delcyros

What is the source of Your datas? The -D4 according to it´s operating manual was a serial Jumo-004B4 with improved air intake and some Chromadur elements replaced by Tinadur. Of course, the engine could be overloaded in theory to 10KN (as was the Jumo-004A) but "Werkseinstellung" was limited to 8.700 rpm, which would yield identic settings as the Jumo-004B4. From what Nowarra writes, the Jumo-004D4 was "standing" in mass production along with the Jumo-004B4 at wars end, altough it appears that few if any -004D found their way into Me-262´s and I believe one was installed into a He-162 M prototype, indicating that mass production was very recent.

best regards,

Messerschmitt Me 262: The Production Log 1941-1945 by O'Connell and Me262 by Radinger and Schick, Messerschmitt Me 262: Testing/Development/Production by Radinger, Me-262 The Story of the German Air Weapon That Almost Changed the Course of the War by Maloney and Frank, and all three of the Messerschmitt Me 262: Variations & Project Designs series.

Oh and I almost forgot all four Me 262 books by Richard Smith