Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Civettone

[
What's significant?
Fact is that those guns and fighters would not have been used in Europe. Seen on an economical scale it's also obvious that the Americans would have to assign more resources to set up a defence than the Germans would if they were to field a couple dozens semi-operational bombers.

Again the US production capacity was so large it would not have mattered.

[machine shop tom]

Originally Posted by Civettone

.......
I know, Tom.
Green is the first to mention this story and many (lesser) publications and websites have simply copied the story. Yet I can assure you that no flight ever took place. Probably it was just one guy mentioning such a flight and this story getting a life of its own.
Too bad it didn't happen...

Kris

Which flight? The trans-Atlantic flight or the Manchurian trip?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree (why can't political and religious leaders do that?). I really can't prove that it they happen (although Green does mention the groups that the planes came from and approximate dates and such) and your proof that it didn't happen seems to satisfy you. Kinda like the Bigfoot thing, the proof is hard to pin down.

tom

[bigZ]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Well, if they carry an atomic bomb, I can.
But like I said, bombing the US would not significantly effect the war. Yet it seems clear that it would have lead to less American fighters, guns and other resources fighting in Europe.

I do to but that doesn't seem to have been the question. The starting point of this thread is that Germany has these bombers ready for production.

That's not true. The Germans built over a thousand 4 engined bombers. That's enough to have a strategic bombing force.

This is an outdated vision. In fact, in the days of Wever there were no bombers powerful enough to reach the Urals. What Wever had in mind, was unrealistic.

What do you base this on? How do you see Germany was prioritizing defence. I think it's clear that the Germans believed in strategic bombing: just see what they did in Guernica, Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, ...
They made a deliberate choice to build multifunctional bombers instead of dedicated heavy bombers.

Kris

Yes you are quite right in stating this thread was about the 264 and the 277 being operational in 1943 although they would have stuggled to became operational by 45 if they hadn't of been cancelled. But I cant succesfully argue a point if you slap on another what if (German Atomic bomb?). Japan was already bombing the US during WWII how much resources where given to that? OK so they where only balloon bombs mostly blowing up trees on the West coast.

I would be intrested to see a breakdown of the 1000 bombers constructed. 20,000 Spits where produced but it didn't mean Fighter Command could use them all in the BOB.

Most of my other points regard the failure of the URAL Bomber and the hope the Luftwaffe could tack on a strategic bomber command in the 40's. Pre war Germany considered France an imediate threat. Its no use having a strategic bomber force if the enemy has overrun the country. This is not to say Germany did not realise the potential just the prioty. Yes 2 engined bomber can perform both strategic missions as long as the target is in range.

Before the war the German economy was close to collapse, strategic materials had to be imported. During the war resources where freed up with the conquests(especially France). Fortunately they where wasted. An example would be 44 fighter production and the immense increase in output for the same amount of Ali used 2 years previously. Out of all the ocuppied counties only Czechovakia made any significant impact on Luftwaffe aircraft production. If the 264 went into production the 262 would have had to be dropped.

PS anyone tell me how to reply directly to each individual point in a persons post?

[Denniss]

AFAIR it's not even proven that the V2 was actually build or even finished/made ready for flight operations.

I remember seeing a comment somewhere the V2 was either not built or it was parked somewhere on an airfield without engines.

[Civettone]

BigZ, I agree with what you say but I don't really see your point. What are you getting at?

Your comment on the German economy is flawed as a war economy cannot collapse on its own. The Germans managed to build a thousand He 177s, so they could also have built a thousand Me 264s. This would result in about a 100 operational bombers which is sufficient to speak of a bomber force.

I agree with Adler that it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war but that's not really the point either as not a single thing the Germans could have done after 1941 could have changed the outcome.

Originally Posted by machine shop tom

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

Tom, I doubt if that's the way it goes.
Green is the only one who mentioned this transatlantic flight. The records of the unit which was supposed to have flown this mission do not show this mission. The survivors of the unit do not remember any mission to NY.
You are entitled to your opinion but sometimes there's no room for personal opinion when it comes to clear historical facts.

Try browsing around on the internet for similar discussions. You'll see similar conclusions. (I hope )

Kris

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Where do you come up with this stuff? The B-36 was not almost ready to go in 1941. The US did not even have an operation jet fighter in 1941, so how were they going to have a bomber with 4 jet engines along with the 6 Prop engines?

The USAF requested a design of a very long range bomber on April 11, 1941! That does not mean that it was almost ready in 1941. The designs had just begun in 1941...

You are not going to get a plane of those proportions flying in a few months from design to first flight. Come on Healz use some common sence here.

The XB-36 did not even fly until 8 Aug 1946...

The first prototype failed to meet the standards place in the requirement of 1941 and it was plagued with problems. The first prototype to meet the standards did not even fly until 4 Dec. 1947.

Do some research man...

All correct except for the need for jets on the B-36. The first B-36s only had the six piston engines. The four jets were added in '49 to add dash speed.

Some B-36 comments, when all was well, the engineer stated "six turning, four burning".

Pilot to engineer, "shut down three!"
engineer to pilot, "which three?"

One of the men I used to work with flew on a B-36. Training missions typically flew out of Maine to Alaska over to Greenland and back to Maine. All at 230 kts!

Those bombers mentioned would not have expedited the B-36 or B-29. Bombers don't fight bombers. However, the fall of Great Britain would certainly have sped up the development of the B-36.

A strike on America would only be a gnat bite, as Alder has said. Impact to the American forces facing Germany would not have been noticable.

German war against Russia may have been impacted.

[machine shop tom]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Tom, I doubt if that's the way it goes.
Green is the only one who mentioned this transatlantic flight. The records of the unit which was supposed to have flown this mission do not show this mission. The survivors of the unit do not remember any mission to NY.
You are entitled to your opinion but sometimes there's no room for personal opinion when it comes to clear historical facts.

Try browsing around on the internet for similar discussions. You'll see similar conclusions. (I hope )

Kris

After spendiing a few hours researching this subject on-line, I would have to pretty much agree with you, Kris. At best, I would give it a 90% chance that it didn't happen. I'd have to leave a least a small chance that it did just because it can't be proven 100% that it didn't happen. But I don't think that it did.

Thank you for your patience.

tom

[Civettone]

Not many people are willing to openly change their mind. Kudos to you.

And for the record, I was very disappointed when people set me straight about the subject because I really wanted to believe it!

Kris

[wink104]

Excellent discussion regarding the Me 264 V1. With all the what ifs going on I thought you may be interested in what finally happened to the project. On 18 July 1944, the 15th Air Force set out to destroy 70+ planes sighted at Memmingen under repair.
They ran into bad weather, lost their escort and only half of the bombers reached the target zone, including the 483rd and 2nd bomb groups. Radio messages directed them to bomb alternative targets but these were unverified.
On reaching the target, fierce opposition was engaged in the form of approx 200 Me 109's and FW 190's with heavy armor, nicknamed "Battering Rams". The 483rd lost 14 out of 26 planes, while the 2nd was spared, only losing one plane which managed to crash land in Switzerland.
My Father, 1st Lt. William S. Winkler, and his crew were led to believe this was a "milk run" to draw the GAF away from troop movements on the front but it turned out to be a well defended developmental base. Post war intel revealed that the only operational Me 264 V1, as well as parts for the V2 and V3 were destroyed in the raid.
That's war - luck, weather, life and death. The German war machine was crippled by allied daytime strategic bombing but at great cost. I'm sure glad my Dad had a horseshoe up his butt! 50 missions with no loss of crew or plane.
If I see any interest or activity on this thread, (which is a bit old by now,) I will gladly provide reference links.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain.

Absolutely - to strike at US with the extra range/diminished payload - having to baiscally fly great circle route with bases in Iceland, Nova Scotia and Canade en route before actually getting to US - would risk a lot of valuable resources for little return - otherwise they are in range from UK/Scotland bases - not to mention placing Carrier Task Force further south.

Remember now, the Bf 109 did not have the effective range to escort bombers any further north than London so British industry was safe from escorted bombers; those that went up without escort would be met by Spitfire IXs for an uncomfortable ride, which did carry cannon. In the event, Hurricane IIC and IV would be made ready for interception duties with four 20mm. This is on top of the USAAF readily available for action in Great Britain.

But that is all null and void, as I said, the Luftwaffe would use its bomber force against the Ural industry as it would finally be in range.

Neither of those bombers would have been impervious to the 38, 47 or 51's even with existing basic armament - and would have suffered even worse losses than unescorted USAAF daylight raiders because of the huge 'hostile environment'.

From an upgun perspective, if needed, the 51 wing was already stressed for four 20mm cannon before switching over to 50 caliber.

It would have been even tougher than B-29 ops over Pacific - equivalent to say, B-29s subject to fighter attacks from 500 miles outbound all the way to the target and back, instead of just the last 200 miles into and back from target..

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain.

Remember now, the Bf 109 did not have the effective range to escort bombers any further north than London so British industry was safe from escorted bombers; those that went up without escort would be met by Spitfire IXs for an uncomfortable ride, which did carry cannon. In the event, Hurricane IIC and IV would be made ready for interception duties with four 20mm.

Just for the record, the variants Bf 109 from August 1940 onwards had plenty of reach to escort the Lutwaffe's bombers anywhere over Britiain's industrial centres.

The droptank-less Emils had a range of 660 km, and that was enough to escort the bombers up to London in practical terms; when the E-7 appeared in August, capable of carrying a droptank, it extended that to 1300 km, ie. well past London. The 109F and later had a range of 1600 km and over with a single droptank.

The F/G/K was actually they were capable of flying from Berlin to Eastern England and back, though that would be really pushing it and without any fighting or high consumption engine regimes, of course.

In a more realistic escort scenario, taking of from near Calais, Leeds or Manchester would within escort range for 109s and 190 by 1942, perhaps a bit further north, too.

[Juha]

Are You sure, Kurfürst?
Why didn’t LW use that ability, for ex. once a while escorted daytime raid on Hull, fighters taking off from somewhere near Texel?
What is the longest bomber escort mission flown by 109Gs You are aware of?

TIA
Juha

[Kurfürst]

I am 100% sure since I own detailed range tables for various Bf 109 types. Simply what you have in published sources for ie. the range of Bf 109G is the range are for maximum cruise speeds (at circa 600kph!), without the use of a droptank. That's pretty similiar to the range of the Bf 109E, but that is comparing apples and oranges since published 109E figures are for econo cruise speeds w/o droptanks.

As for longest mission, I have no idea. I've never seen any book stating distances or for that matter detail daily German sorties in such depth. Did you?

As for the Western Front, there were very few German bombers stationed there after May 1941, KG 40 boys mainly, but they were busy with anti-shipping operations. Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West. Not sure about Eastern operations.

[Juha]

Kurfürst
I know the Finnish actions, without droptank. I'm surprised that there are no info on LW escort missions, one gets easily some idea on USAAF or RAF escort missions and from those one can draw at least rough estimates on their escort capabilities. And ferry range is definetely different thing than combat range.

"Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West"

Not so simple, for example KG 2 was in West, equipped with Do 217s which was after all designed as heavily armed day bomber. And there were other bomber units. So bombers were there. So question remains, why LW didn't utilise their fighters long range for escort missions, why they didn't try surprise day bombing attacks on fringe targets like Hull, which they considered important target for their night attacks?

Juha

[Kurfürst]

I am not sure about what period we talk about KG 2... as for the Do 217, it was also used as a nightfighter, and it was used a lot as a anti-shipping bomber because of it's capability to lfit heavy warloads.

As for daylight attacks, I presume the LW would not be so keen to basically restart the BoB, but only with a fraction of a fighter and bomber force. What, 100, maybe 200 bombers and 2-300 fighters in entire France at the time, maximum..?

Most bombers were on the East, where the LW and VVS was exchanging some very serious, though often neglected tonnage of bombs, but it's difficult to say anything based on those missions. My impression being that most of those were about hopping 100 km behind the front, bombing some supply depot or railway station, making but a fraction of use of the bombers range.. as the Urals would be in unreachable distances to any bomber at the time, Axis or Allied.